[pleasant ambient music]

Regina Barber Degraaf: Welcome to Spark Science. I’m your host, Regina Barber Degraaf. I teach physics and astronomy at Western Washington University, and this episode was recorded right before the current quarantine.

In February, we held a live show at WWU to talk about seasonal affective disorder, or SAD, as it’s sometimes called. This show not only focuses on SAD, but gives advice on how to deal with depression, grief, and anxiety. We hope this episode will provide you with some tools to combat feelings many of us are going through right now.

Also, during this time of social distancing, you can close your eyes and imagine you’re also at the live show with, let’s say, a huge audience.

[music gets louder then fades out]

Welcome to Spark Science. This is one of our first live recordings in a very long time. How are you all doing? I’m Regina Barber Degraaf. I’m your host for today. I am teaching physics and astronomy and science communication here at Western Washington University. But I’m here today with my friend and colleague, the new Executive Director for Counseling, Health and Wellness here at Western Washington University, Dr. Sislena Ledbetter.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Thank you!

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah! I’m going to clap for you. [applause and cheering]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Thank you. Thank you.

Regina Barber Degraaf: And you are also the host of a show called Healthy Mind for almost nine years . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yes.

Regina Barber Degraaf: . . . at UDC TV, right?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Correct.

Regina Barber Degraaf: In Washington DC.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: In Washington DC.

Regina Barber Degraaf: So welcome to our show.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Thank you.

Regina Barber Degraaf: And what we’re going to talk about today is seasonal affective disorder . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yes.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Right?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yes.

Regina Barber Degraaf: So this is a serious topic, but we’re going to try to have fun and we’re going to try to give people tips on what to do.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: That’s right.

Regina Barber Degraaf: And then give our audience some time. We have a live audience. You all heard them in our intro right there. And they’re going to be able to ask questions after we kind of discuss and . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: That’s right.

Regina Barber Degraaf: . . . fall into our conversation holes.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: That’s right. Excellent. So, one of the things we can do is we can get the pulse of the audience.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yes!

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And we can ask them how they feel.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Let’s do that.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Because they were like, “Wooo!”

Regina Barber Degraaf: Because I made them.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But let’s see. You made them.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: So let’s see for real . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: [laughter] Yes, for real. How are you feeling?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: . . . how they feel.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Oh. It’s starting to populate. Look at that. It’s OK, you can be honest. If you’re sad, you’re sad. That’s the point of this show.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yeah.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I’m a little sad.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Well, this actually has been a really tough month and a tough season for people with seasonal affective disorder. So, the truth is, it’s a disorder that seems like depression. It acts like depression and presents like depression, where you may feel listless, tired, your rhythms are off, your diet is off, your sleep patterns are off. I see some smiles. I’m not going to look at you.

But it can really throw you off. And so the disorder is typically diagnosed by the doctor. Self-diagnosis is not recommended.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But it’s real, and it happens right around winter solstice, like right around December 21st, the shortest day of the year. How many of you already knew that? It’s the shortest day of the year.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yup.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And that’s when the days become really short.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Did you want to do another poll?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: We can.

Regina Barber Degraaf: We’re kind of, I mean, we’re kind of in the middle here. I was expecting this.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yeah.

Regina Barber Degraaf: The next poll you wanted to ask into the audience was . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Let’s see. What do we have?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah. What do we have? Do you know anyone with what Dr. Ledbetter just described?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yeah. I’m not diagnosing, but I can. Do you know anyone who has, you know, who has SAD? Look at that, you see that? So it’s pervasive, right? There are a lot of people. I wonder if it’s because we’re in Bellingham. What do you think?

Regina Barber Degraaf: So, we’re going to get into kind of more about seasonal affective disorder. We’re going to talk about, really, tips on how to deal with them. But before we do that, and for those of you who have listened to Spark Science before, we go into people’s backgrounds. We’re like, how did you actually get to, basically work as an executive director of counseling, health and wellness here at Western? Like, what was your path like?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Oh my goodness.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Did you always want to deal with health?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: So, I think that is a great question. It has been an indirect path. It’s been kind of circuitous, OK? So, I did my first therapy session when I was seven. And I remember it very clearly, because I remember walking in a field. I was living, at the time, in North Carolina. And it was a young lady who‒she was probably seven, too‒but I remember, this. I remember talking to her and saying, you know, she was experiencing some kind of loss, like seven year old loss. And I just remember saying to her, “You’re going . . . people are going to talk about you, so really, so stop crying.”

Regina Barber Degraaf: Oof.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And I literally remember that. But fast-forward like 20 years. Now I’m in college and I’m a psychology major and I’m thinking, “You know, this psychology thing is pretty cool,” but I didn’t like the deficit base. So, for undergraduate I did psychology. For graduate school, I did social psychology. And so when I say I’m a doctor but I’m not a physician, I just play one on TV, it is absolutely for real. [Regina laughing]

So, now this is even a more interesting twist.

Regina Barber Degraaf: But let’s explain what the deficit model is really quick. Because you . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: The deficit model for psychology. So, instead of going into clinical psychology, because the deficit model looks at what’s wrong with you, right? And I was already that person that is an over-assessor. I assess. I’m looking, I’m curious. And so becoming a psychologist, at least when I was in graduate school, it was all about the negative disorders, right? Bipolar, schizophrenia, what is wrong, how can, you know, it just felt like a way to find what was wrong with people instead of what can you do well, even if you have a disorder, what can you do well? And psychology was not about that. It was all about what was wrong, and you just focused on that all the time.

So, I decided to become a social psychologist as a result, and understand the research behind

what clinicians actually do. So I did research, and then I, you know, decided I was going to transition into . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: TV.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: TV. I did TV, I became a faculty member, I became an administrator‒Associate Vice President for Student Affairs‒and a director of the Counseling Center. So I’ve done a whole lot of that. And then they called me and said, “Do you want to come to Bellingham to work at Western Washington University?”

Regina Barber Degraaf: And you just got on the plane.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And I just got on the plane. [Regina laughing] I just got on the plane. Actually, I didn’t know anything about Western, I didn’t know anything about Bellingham, but I do have a cousin who was in the Navy. But yeah, so I came to Bellingham, and this was the only place in Washington that I had been, so, and that’s how I came to Western.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Wow.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And I’m just excited, because we have an amazing team serving all of you and we are integrating health, student health and wellness.

Regina Barber Degraaf: So, let’s, let’s then, let’s get to like, what can you do, then? So we have a lot of students here, we have faculty here, we have staff here that are like, “This is affecting me.”

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: “This is affecting me.”

Regina Barber Degraaf: So what do we do?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: So part of what this disorder is, and other mental illness and mental challenges is really checking in with yourself, and making sure that you know yourself. Like, you can go to a doctor and spend time, but when you’re, especially, dealing with a disorder that is seasonal, you are really going to be the first person to check in, to say, “My sleep patterns are off and I’m not quite sure what’s going on. I’m putting on extra pounds. I’m craving carbs. I don’t understand what’s going on with me and I need to check on and figure out what’s going on with myself,” first, and then get in front of a psychiatrist‒not psychiatrist, not first‒a psychologist or a therapist that might be able to help you with talk therapy or light therapy.

[Regina and Dr. Ledbetter talking over each other]

So let’s go to some of the tips. I’m going to give you some tips on how to make it through this season. And if any of these tips resonate with you as you go through them, this might be a good place to show your cards. Exercise, because exercise is really amazing at helping us, really for

everything, right? But it helps to boost those serotonin levels, which regulate‒they really, it regulates the sleep hormone, right? The sleep hormone, the eat hormone, all of those hormonal changes that go on in your body that keep you kind of moving and regulate those rhythms, they’re really thrown off during this season and exercise can get you back on track.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I will‒can I ask you a question . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yeah yeah yeah!

Regina Barber Degraaf: . . . about exercise? Because, when you said, before we even get to the other ones, I don’t know if anybody in the audience hears this, but it’s not just seasonal affective disorder but like, if you have anxiety or you have thoughts where you get stuck on that neuro . . . I’ve had neuroscientists and they’re it, if you have these thought patterns where it goes straight to like, negative thoughts, right? And exercise will stop you from kind of going down that path.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Absolutely.

Regina Barber Degraaf: So like . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: That’s right.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: It’s a great regulator.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I don’t know if you want to add to that.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: It’s a mood regulator so exercise, what it does is many things in the body. And it also, if anyone has noticed, exercise kind of regulates your breathing. Have you ever noticed that? Like, when you’re running, your breathing gets into a natural pattern. You can recreate that. There’s a thing we call four square breathing when you breathe in for four and you breathe out for eight. And you breathe in for four and you breathe out for eight.

Regina Barber Degraaf: You’re like making me want to do it.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: You can do that. It’s what I do with my classes. What it does is it sort of, it kind of relaxes you, and that’s what exercise does as well. So it sort of gets you in this pattern. And it’s good for everything in your body that might go awry. I cannot ever think of a negative impact of movement.

Regular sleep schedule. How many of you are on a regular sleep schedule that’s eight hours a day? So I see a mix . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: I see a mix.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But so, less than 30 percent of Americans are on a regular sleep schedule.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Less than?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Less, fewer.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I think this is pretty good then. We have a good sample.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yeah. We have an absolutely great sample. Because we are just so busy doing stuff, and staying up late and waking up early and particularly during this season, when the sun kind of throws you off, it is really important to think about sleep. And so as we pivot to light therapy, that is one of the first recommended treatments for seasonal affective disorder. Who knows why? OK, I’ll tell you. [Regina and audience laughing]

So, with seasonal affective disorder, the days are shorter, right, and so you need the light in order to hit that retina that hits your hypothalamus that creates the serotonin that gets you back into a regular sleep pattern. And so within ten to fifteen minutes of waking up, if you have‒if light is the issue, and you participate or you give yourself light therapy‒and there is a specific, they’re about forty dollars, you know, in the store. There is a specific type of light. You don’t just go get a light bulb. I mean, that’s what I would do.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah. And you’re like, “It’s not working.”

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: No, it’s not working. Right. What’s going on here, what do I have? But there’s a specific type of light that you use for light therapy and it’s like 10,000 lux and a sunny day is 50,000 lux, so that’s some really, really, the first recommended way after seeing someone, a therapist, that might recommend it for you to get therapy.

[pleasant ambient music]

Regina Barber Degraaf: We’re talking to Dr. Sis about the stigma of seeing a therapist.

[pleasant ambient music]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Some people, you know, they don’t like the idea of therapy because they think, “Oh, well, people that go to therapy, you know, they’re losing it or they’re not smart or they’re crazy or whatever.”

Regina Barber Degraaf: They worry about what people will think about them.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: They worry about, yeah, stigma.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But we’ve done a really good job . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: . . . of reducing stigma. And how many of you now are it proud to say you go to therapy?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: See? That’s what I’m talking about. Let me tell you something.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I go too.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: See. [Regina laughing] I’m looking for one. [Regina laughing.] Right? But there’s no, in five, maybe even as recent as five years ago, it would not have been popular to raise your hand. Now, it’s it so popular. Like in Hollywood, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, my therapist . . .”

Regina Barber Degraaf: Does anyone not want to go to therapy because they think it is too expensive?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Hmm. But our first model, we have shifted. How many of you remember the time when the only thing the Counseling Center did was refer you out? You come in, and they refer in. You come in and they refer you.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I don’t . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: No? Anyway, I remember. I remember. Seven months ago, that’s what we used to do. But now . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: Oh, wow!

Regina Barber Degraaf: . . . they actually do full 45 minute sessions walk-in, OK? So they are transitioning to a . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: Here on campus?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Here on campus. Transitioning to a therapeutic model. And you might not, the average student only uses the counseling center nationally five to six times and then you move on. You get what you need and then you move on. Same thing for, you know, for therapy and whatever types of treatment‒don’t ever think that, including medication, if light therapy doesn’t work and talk therapy, you’re still struggling, and a psychiatrist then

recommends that you go on medication, it is not a life sentence. You can go on medication for two or three months, and then when the season is over, you’re done, right? I’m not an advocate, necessarily, of medication, but I’m just saying if it gets to the point where you’re down, it’s not a life sentence.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And a lot of people think it is. So, avoid conflict as much as possible. However of you are, avoid drama in your lives? Mmhmmm.

Regina Barber Degraaf: I mean I try. [laughter in audience]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yeah. We probably should use the cards.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: So, but honestly, it’s sort of tongue in cheek, but the truth is, the more conflict that you have in your life, the more likely you are to struggle. And so be mindful of that. Consider a gratitude practice. Who has a gratitude practice?

Regina Barber Degraaf: I do not. Give us some examples of gratitude practice.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: [inaudible.] You could have a journal . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: Oh, OK.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: . . . where you journal. So one of the things I do is I actually notice when I’m out. I notice. I notice things. And so, Bellingham is very different from Washington DC. And so, it’s very different, and so one of the things that I’ve started doing, because it’s really hard to capture how beautiful this area is . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: . . . so I take a picture every day. So, whatever your gratitude practice is, there are data that suggest that being more grateful and showing, in a gratitude practice, actually contributes positively to your own well-being. So, you know, it could be mindfulness or meditation. I used to start every class with two minutes of mindfulness. How many of you believe me? It’s . . . [audience laughing] I did! I would start every class and it would be a mindfulness activity and we’d have a really . . . and honestly, it started at two minutes, but what did they do? What did the class do? What happened?

Audience member: . . . deeper.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: That’s right. They wanted deeper. They wanted more. And we ended up

doing like seven minutes of gratitude.

Regina Barber Degraaf: The whole class?

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: The whole class. And what did it do? If they were dysregulated when they came in, by the time we finished our mindfulness practice, they came all the way down [speaking quietly and softly] And for me, that was a gratitude practice. And I actually, you know, I would wear my Fit Bit because I was too cheap for an Apple one, and I would track my own, my pulse.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yes.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And during seasons when I was teaching, it would be down like seven to ten points.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Wow.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Down. Because I was meditating with every class. That’s like three or four every day.

Consciously grieve. And there’s been a lot of grief. Has anybody experienced any grief in this season? Oh my goodness! This has been a really heavy season for grief, right? So, just be mindful of that. Don’t rush past it, especially if you have seasonal affective disorder. Don’t rush past grief. Take a moment and honor that space. Cry those tears, do what it is that you need to do. Forget all of that “be strong” stuff, because that’s not even, that’s not even scientific, I mean really. Not even is it not scientific, you should cry. When people you love transition into ancestry, you should be able to shed tears, right? But do it in a healthy way.

Limit media.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Especially social media.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: I know. I don’t even, what is the point? Why should I even ask?

Regina Barber Degraaf: You should definitely follow us, though, at Spark Science now [audience laughing]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: I know.

Regina Barber Degraaf: At Dr. Sis. Just saying.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: You should. You should. At Dr. Sis.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah. Write it down. At Spark Science Now.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And at Spark Science Now.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Hash tag Beyond the Blues. You’re enjoying this, so you know, hash tag us. Anyway, but don’t go on there! Go ahead. [laughter]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: So, real quick tip. [Regina laughing] Talking about the healthy mind, I’ve talked to dozens, maybe hundreds, of psychologists. And one of the therapists that I interviewed last year said that his number one concern now was adolescents that show up‒meaning, say, 17 to 24‒and they are either suicidal, having suicidal ideation, or really seriously depressed because of the likes that they’re not getting.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Mmhmm.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And seriously, you might be subject to it and not even realize it. But check your body the next time you post something that you feel is meaningful. Check in with yourself and see, “Am I a little, feeling some kind of way because I only have five likes, and ten likes, and I’m looking at, you know, Susie Miller over here,” sorry if that’s your name [audience laughing] “and that person . . .”

Regina Barber Degraaf: [talking over Dr. Sis] There’s like two in this room.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: There might be two Susie Millers?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But you know, so check, before you go [music enters] “Mmm, how can they do that?” think about the world that you live in and how you now define community.

[pleasant ambient music]

[music fades out and then starts again, and fades out again]

Regina Barber Degraaf: Our guest is Dr. Sislena Ledbetter, who is sharing tips on how to fight depression. [music fades out with a sound effect flourish]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Ask for help if you need help.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Ask for help in your community because people don’t always know. Don’t overcommit. How many of you feel overcommitted? You feel overcommitted? Oh, gosh!

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: You feel overcommitted?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: You got the hand up and the green sign.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: He’s like, “Ugh! Overcommitted!”

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: With family responsibilities, work responsibilities, class responsibilities, I already told you self-care responsibilities. Now you got to get a gratitude journal [audience laughing]

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: I mean, you’ve got to walk and you’ve got to see the color purple in a field [audience laughing].

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: You’ve got all of these things now; you feel overcommitted. Don’t overcommit. Don’t overcommit, because it really can stress you out, right? What’s the worst that can happen, right, if you just kind of take some things off your plate. And I just have this slide up here: findtreatment.samhsa.gov. You can find a treatment place for seasonal affective disorder anywhere in the country by either calling that number or going to that website.

Regina Barber Degraaf: That is awesome. What number? Let’s . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: 1-800-662-4357. And you can also contact the Crisis Text Line, if you are in crisis, at 741741.

Remember people love you and don’t always know how to help you, and be open to sharing with safe friends, right? Because sometimes it doesn’t feel safe, does it? Sharing with people, because they don’t get it. People don’t always get it, what you’re going through, right?

And then do something that you enjoy. I put the kids up there because I think, at some point, we forget to play. How many of you like to play? I mean, hard? [Audience murmuring.] I mean, really play, like, dirty running around, the busted up tire. Play, hard. That’s what I’m talking about, the dirty . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: I’m more of an indoor kid.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Get dirty. Huh?

Regina Barber Degraaf: I’m more of an indoor kid.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Indoor?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: How do you play? Oh, I know how you play . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: I play video games.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Uh, I mean, with my kid.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yes. And you play with music. You sing.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Eh . . . don’t tell anybody.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But it’s a [inaudible due to Regina laughing] But that’s the kind of, that’s what I’m talking about.

Regina Barber Degraaf: We did karaoke.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: We did karaoke, and it was fun.

Regina Barber Degraaf: It was [laughing].

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: But at some point, there’s this play switch, right? And I am determined, if you see me around campus and I’m not playing, I’m going to need you to say something. We used to have this thing in my last institution, and we called it recess.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Wow!

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And I beought kickballs . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: That’d be so awesome.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: And I bought hula hoops, and I bought jump rope. How many of you know how to double-dutch?

Regina Barber Degraaf: [whispering] I do not. [audience murmuring]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Oh see, don’t, [audience reacting] don’t, don’t! But we bought double-dutch ropes and we played. And it just really lifted the energy of the atmosphere of the campus, so . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: I would love to watch this campus try that.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: No, you could do this. Oh, I know, you guys probably wouldn’t play with me, huh?

Regina Barber Degraaf: No, it would be hilarious. Let’s do it. [audience reacting] [Regina laughing]

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Would you play? Can I see the hands, because I will find you.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Would you play? [audience reacting] Look at that!

So those were the 18 tips that I had.

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: The last one was, “Hold on. This too shall pass,” right? Whenever you’re going through a season, it feels like a dark season. Seasonal affective disorder takes you, starting sometime around December 21st when the days are really short, everybody is pumped up for the holidays, but people that suffer with seasonal affective disorder, they’re not as pumped. Notice people. Look in their eyes. They may be going down when everybody else is going up. You might not think you can tell, but look in their eyes, because you will be able to see. And it goes, you know, all the way through the holidays, when people are happy around you and you’re still sad.

So, just be mindful that if you do have SAD, you’re getting ready to break out of it. And next year, when it’s about to happen, you’re going to have all these tips, right?

Regina Barber Degraaf: Yeah.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: You know, you’re not alone in this, so, you know . . .

Regina Barber Degraaf: Well, I want to thank you for being on our show, our first, again, live show in a long, long, long time. We brought in an audience . . .

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Yay!

Regina Barber Degraaf: And I’m so excited. And I want to thank you, again for being here.

Dr. Sislena Ledbetter: Thank you. This was great! [applause] Wooo!

[pleasant ambient music]

Regina Barber Degraaf: We’d like to thank Dr. Sislena Ledbetter for taking the time to talk to us and being brave enough to do so in front of a live audience. If you’d like to learn more about Dr. Ledbetter’s work, you can visit drsis.com [spelling out name of website].

Spark Science is produced in collaboration with KMRE and Western Washington University. Today’s episode was recorded on campus at Western Washington University. Our producers are Suzanne Blais, Robert Clark, and myself, Regina Barber Degraaf. Our audio engineers are Zerach Coakley, Julia Thorpe, Erin Howard, and Ariel Shiley.

If you missed any of the show, go to our website, sparksciencenow.com. And if there’s a science idea you’re curious about, send us a message on Twitter or Facebook @SparkScienceNow. Thank you for listening to Spark Science.

[pleasant ambient music continues then fades out with a sound effect flourish]