This episode features another keynote speaker at the 2017 SACNAS National Convention, Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre.
Dr. Sierra Sastre is a material scientist currently working at the US National Treasury and was selected for the first Mars analog mission funded by NASA.
We have a great conversation about dreams, nanotechnology and living on Mars. Listen to find out why I apologize in advance to my friends named Debbie.
Please enjoy.
This interview was recorded on location in Salk Lake City, Utah in October 2017
Click Here for Transcript
>> Here we go!
[♪ Blackalicious rapping Chemical Calisthenics ♪]
♪ Neutron, proton, mass defect, lyrical oxidation, yo irrelevant
♪ Mass spectrograph, pure electron volt, atomic energy erupting
♪ As I get all open on betatron, gamma rays thermo cracking
♪ Cyclotron and any and every mic
♪ You’re on trans iridium, if you’re always uranium
♪ Molecules, spontaneous combustion, pow
♪ Law of de-fi-nite pro-por-tion, gain-ing weight
♪ I’m every element around
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So my name is Yajaira Sierra Sastre and I’m a materials scientist and educator by training.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaff: During your talk … so your current job you’re working for Bureau of Engraving and printing. And you like brought out a hundred dollar bill, which I was worried for you. I was like, “Oh no. Don’t carry all that cash around when you’re like,” but anyway.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: So you brought it out and you said that you basically are in charge of the security, like the strip and the bills and like making something that’s very hard to reproduce but also easy to use.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct. Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: Okay.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. So I am a scientist at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. I joined the agency in 2007, 2014. Prior to that I was teaching at a state University of New York in Cortland. And before teaching I was part of the HI-SEAS Mars [inaudible] that we will get a chance to talk more about that.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah, which is an awesome story.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: I loved all your pictures from like being in the simulation of …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: Of, you know, Mars for four months. Four months or three months?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Four months.
Dr. Regina Barber: Four months. That’s right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Four months. But yeah since 2014 I have been working at the bureau. This is a bureau of the United States department of treasury.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I am part of the office of technology development.
Dr. Regina Barber: Okay.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So I am part of a team of scientists working on the future technologies that we will be incorporating in notes to make them more durable, more secure.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right. So I mean, we’re talking about things that people are not seeing right now. This is kind of, I mean kind of secret right? Like, no one really knows what you’re doing yet because if they did then they could reproduce it.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber: Which is kind of awesome. It’s very … I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 36 and I was around with X-Files and all that kind of stuff.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: So this idea of being a scientist but also working for the government and having some secrecy around it is very appealing.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. A lot of people find it very interesting.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … adventurous, right?
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: To some extent. But yeah, we are serving a mission. As I shared with the audience yesterday, if I think about in the grand scheme of things, I’m a scientist that is helping protect United States economy by developing technologies that will make our bills, our Federal Reserve notes, secure. Not just here in the United States, because many people may not know, but 2/3s of the money that we manufacturer at the bureau of printing, 2/3s of United States currency is used outside the United States.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right. It’s used abroad.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. Outside the United States. So we are trying to find those technologies that will increase the security of our currency. But, these technologies need to be technologies, as you mention, that the general public will be able to use to authenticate [inaudible] to determine whether or not that note is real or is, you know. And so we are thinking about … it’s a complex problem when we think about it in the sense that we need to have in mind when we develop these technologies … as a materials scientist, right? So, with that very, like strong technical background, I in this type of job, I need to have the user in mind.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So that’s why the work that I do is at the intersection of materials science but also human factors. I call [inaudible] economics because basically, we have a technology and humans will be interacting with that technology. And humans will be perceiving that technology and making some judgments.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, when we think about, you know, having people from different backgrounds and people in many different countries that trust the United States currency …
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … we need to keep in mind that yes, we need to have the user in mind when we develop these technologies.
Dr. Regina Barber: So, yeah. So, our listeners are, you know, from very young to people who are older than me. So I think, I don’t know if you remember, when we were younger we had the pen. You it know when there was a $20 bill or a $50 bill or $100 bill and there were these authenticating pens and they would draw on the $100 bill and if it turned this certain color, then it was real. Or if it was, you know, a fake bill. And I think what, I mean, what you’re basically saying is we don’t want to have a lengthy process for the person who has to authenticate it, right?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct. Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: And they should be able to do it.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes, exactly. And we are talking about the cash transaction where a decision needs to be made, whether or not that bill is real or not. And that needs to happen in a matter of seconds.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And we are talking about, you know, how that decision making process affects the businesses, right?
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So it needs to be quick. It needs to be very easy to see.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: which is a technological challenge because …
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … If you think about it, right now our United States dollar bills, what we have is inks that change.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We call them like optically variable inks because they change in color depending on the angle …
Dr. Regina Barber: [whispers] Oh!
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … of the light.
Dr. Regina Barber: So we’re talking about Snell’s law here almost.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] Yeah!
Dr. Regina Barber: Okay, cool.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. So we have that and but sometimes, you know, depending on the lighting conditions in the room it can be challenging to see those.
Dr. Regina Barber: You need to test for all kinds of light.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, yes. so, we are trying to … our role, our job as research scientists, looking at the future technologies …
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We are trying to solve those types of problems to make the technology more relevant, more useful in many different conditions and many different scenarios.
Dr. Regina Barber: And I like what you said about, like 2/3s of our cash currency is being used abroad, meaning like, because I know people are probably listening to this and they’re like, “Well why are we spending so much time on cash? Nobody uses cash anymore.” But you know what? 2/3s of it, people outside of our country are using cash.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: That’s correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: So, and there are many people that use cash. And it’s different in different communities.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: And I mean, my mother, I love her very much but she uses cash all the time. Like all the time! And it’s like, it’s not even racial or gender, it’s like generational. Older people use cash.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And so it’s very, and you know, and younger people use cash because they don’t have credit cards.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: So if you’re in your teens and even early 20s. So it’s very interesting.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. Yes. And we will keep manufacturing money based on demand. And basically the trends, the world trends, show that the use of cash is steady. I mean it continues growing worldwide, right?
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So …
Dr. Regina Barber: It’s this intersection between economy and like actual, human, you know, behavior.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct. Correct. yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: And so you need to figure that out. And I like what you just said when you were saying, “If it takes too long to authenticate these bills, it will hurt that business.”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: Like they will, I mean, I just … I never thought about that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Or if they [inaudible] very difficult. If the technology, if the user doesn’t know what to do with it …
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I mean, they look at the bill but if those [inaudible] are too complex and they don’t understand or they cannot intuitively make a decision about, okay what to do with the note in order to make us of the technology, then our jobs will be worthless.
Dr. Regina Barber: Well it hurts their business but it also puts them under risk, having all these fraudulent bills, you know?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: It’s so interesting. So I wanted to take a step back though, because again you were one of the keynote speakers here at this SACNAS convention here in 2017. And you talked about a few things. You talked about your background and why you wanted to become a scientist, and also this amazing project you got to be in related to NASA.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And I want to talk about that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I would say that since I was a little girl, you know since I was, you know growing up, I showed that, you know, tendency to be more curious and excited about, you know, science and science courses. There were special moments that when I think back, moments that really sparked that enthusiasm and that curiosity for the world around me. so I remember, very clearly, one night where when my father woke me up in the middle of the night because there was a planetary alignment going on …
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And he wanted me to see it. And I just remember he waking me up, going outside. I don’t remember what I saw but I remember the excitement that he showed. I remember his face just being so amazed at what we were witnessing. And that had a very strong impact on … wow! Of having this appreciation and excitement about the universe and starting to wonder, you know, what else is out there?
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So it started that interest for science it started at a very young age. But I liked many other things so growing up I was a ballet dancer, I liked dancing, I also liked performing arts.
Dr. Regina Barber: What kind of performing arts? Were you like in musicals and stuff?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So I used to sing. I have not sung in a long time. [Laughing.] But I used to sing.
Dr. Regina Barber: In public right?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber: You probably sing in your house.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The community and …
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] … And events, you know, in my community, in my home town. And so I used to sing and also, yeah, I loved acting.
Dr. Regina Barber: I had this revelation, very recently, like in the last 9 or 10 years. Basically, around when I was having my baby and I was like, “Why are we as scientists (not all of us) but some of us will be like, ‘Like what’s the use of a comedian, what’s the use of actors and Hollywood, and it’s so vapid and so shallow’.” But like, we need that. Right? We need to, like, unwind, we need to connect as humans. We need to cry, we need to be happy. Like, if we don’t have that, then we’ll die.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: You know, like in depression. I mean, or just be horribly depressed all of the time.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: I don’t know. But anyway, it made me think of that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. But, yes. So, I had all these interests and I would say, you know, getting exposed to those other forms of art like performing arts, I still use those skills. I mean my first job, I was a high school teacher, chemistry teacher. And I remember just feeling that the students were, you know, that audience in the theater. So I would act. I would be, I would just, you know, immerse myself in this character to try to make the chemistry class, the chemistry lectures more exciting and engaging.
Dr. Regina Barber: More of like a plot or a story?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah! Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So …
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: … in the end, everything worked out. The more we expose ourselves to diverse experiences, the better. That’s my advice.
[♪ Janelle Monae singing Wondaland ♪]
♪ Early late at night
♪ I wander off into a land
♪ You can go, but you mustn’t tell a soul
♪ There’s a world inside
♪ Where dreamers meet each other
Dr. Regina Barber: Now let’s get off the ground.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Let’s do that. [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: And you have in your bio and you’ve spoke about this thing, about this dream to be an astronaut. You really want this.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And one of the steps towards that goal in your life was to be part of this project. So I want, I’m going to let you explain this project and like how did that happen.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. So I have always wanted to be an astronaut, since I was five years old. And it’s that type of dreams that never go away. They come, you know, and they go but they are always there. It would linger in my head.
Dr. Regina Barber: Like the intensity changes but it’s still there.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: The intensity … yes, exactly. The intensity would change as I grew up then you start, like, wondering if you’re actually suited for the job and then, you know, more doubts, you know …
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … come to your mind. I call those doubts, the evil Martians.
Dr. Regina Barber: Oh really? I have a name for mine.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: So I read an article once about how, you know, you have anxiety and you have thoughts of like, “I can’t do that, you shouldn’t do that,” or like, I’m a hypochondriac so like my side hurts and I ‘m like, “Oh my god I have cancer,” or something like that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: And I have that. I named that voice because the article told me it’s easier to name it and then blame that person. And I named her Debbie and I was like, “Debbie you shut up. I’m fine, I’ll be fine.”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: I can do this. But anyway. Sorry!
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah so but it was … that dream was always present. So I went to grad school. So I witnessed the last shuttle launch.
Dr. Regina Barber: But what did you go to graduate school for?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: At Cordel.
Dr. Regina Barber: And for like material science? Or?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: For materials chemistry.
Dr. Regina Barber: Okay.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. For materials chemistry. And I remember feeling so sad, you know, “Oh! The end of the shuttle program and all that.”
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: But then the year after, NASA was, I mean, if I am remembering well, yeah I think it was either that same year …. let’s see yeah that same year by November of 2011. NASA announced that they were going to open new positions for the astronaut corp. program and I just said, “Okay, I at least need to try this.”
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I need to try this. So I wasn’t with my PhD when I looked at the qualifications to apply. I had the minimum qualifications so I said, “I need to try.” So I went ahead and submitted my application to the actual NASA astronaut candidate program.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Meanwhile, I said, “Okay so I think that in order to increase the possibilities of, you know, either being interviewed … ”
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … I said to myself, “Okay let’s look at opportunities, let’s look for opportunities to do research applied to space.”
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So I started Googling, you know, keywords like, “nanotechnology” because that’s my area of expertise. “Nanotechnology, space, Mars Analog Mission.” Announcement pops up, and I am like, “Okay, what is that? Mars Analog Mission.” So when I started reading, so I learned about the Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation that is a NASA-funded program run by the University of Hawaii and they were recruiting scientists to join in a crew that would live and work like astronauts in these habitats, in these geodesic dome located on the Mauno Loa volcano in Hawaii.
So I decided okay, so let’s go and apply. Something that was very interesting from the application process is that they stated that this selection was going to be made based on actual current NASA requirements …
Dr. Regina Barber: Wow.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … or guidelines. So they were looking for astronaut-like individuals.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And I decided …
Dr. Regina Barber: And you’re like, “That’s me.”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] So I wish that, right? So then as part of the application, we also needed to submit a research proposal because they wanted us to conduct research as astronauts will do in future missions on the red planet.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, based on my background in nanotechnology and textiles, I submitted this proposal to look at anti-microbial coatings on fabrics, on different types of garments, to see if we could, if astronauts or the crew during the four-month long mission, if the crew could wear the same garment over and over again, you know? For long periods of time.
Dr. Regina Barber: And they wouldn’t get gross?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Well, I mean, we wanted to look at that.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We wanted to look at, okay like, how these types of garments that have nano-coatings how they are going to perform in these types of, you know, mission conditions. How people are going to feel about the idea of wearing the same garment over and over again.
Dr. Regina Barber: Will it get itchy?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, exactly. Or gross, as you said.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So I propose this experiment where we were going to look at different types of pieces of clothing, I mean from socks, to t-shirts, to towels, different types of textile materials.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Whispers] Wow.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And we designed a survey where we were actually looking at a subjective sensory evaluation. So we wanted to see, yes, how these materials, how these textiles were performing just from a strictly technological standpoint. But again, it’s very important, you know, to see people’s perception about long term wear of these types of garments because the reasons for someone to decide that they are not going to wear a piece of clothing, those reasons can be … they are not always related to the performance of that garment.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Some people will just say, “I think it’s dirty,” or “It feels dirty,” or “I am just bored of wearing the same thing.”
Dr. Regina Barber: “Or I don’t like how it doesn’t bend, or it does bend,” or something like that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Exactly, exactly. Because over time, you know, as we use the same piece of clothing, yeah, the sensory characteristics of the fabric will change.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I mean people, we are even able to tell if it feels like moist or …
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … or sometimes people would say it feels, describe it as it feels heavy …
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … on the skin. Quite interesting. Very interesting.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So we wanted to look at that. So again, this was actually my first project in which I looked at the intersection of materials science with human factors.
Dr. Regina Barber: Well yeah. No, I mean as you’re describing this, it’s so obvious how this is similar to what you’re doing now.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes. And I like sharing this story because then it’s like people, “Ahh okay, now I got it.”
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: “Now I got the relationship between your Mars experience and what you’re doing at the Bureau of printing, how you got to the place you are.” You know.
Dr. Regina Barber: What was the most challenging thing, then, while you were in this dome basically with 3 strangers. You didn’t know them before this mission.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We were six; six crew members.
Dr. Regina Barber: Oh six. Okay, so five strangers with you.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And you’d never met them before?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: No. We met, well we were selected and then we went to do some training …
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … so it’s a habitat that is here in Utah, in the Utah desert. And it’s [inaudible] by the Mars Society. So we went there for two-weeks and trained. That was our first time really interacting, you know, in that type of settings. I would say that by the end of the third month, I started, you know, I started to have these dreams about where I would see myself eating a piece of chicken breast.
Dr. Regina Barber: Huh.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Or eating a pork chop and it was just like these very vivid dreams of just me eating things that were actually, you know, like big pieces or chunks of meat. Because …
Dr. Regina Barber: Which you’re being deprived of.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. So, the ingredients we had, the foods we had to eat, of course everything was freeze dried.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And …
Dr. Regina Barber: I saw your pictures of just like, basically big plastic tubs of like random, you know, different frozen foods. Like, what was it? Onions and something else.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Oh! Yeah, yeah. So, basically everything, so every single ingredient, let’s say, onions and mushrooms and peppers, everything was freeze dried. So we were allowed to use these ingredients and we came up with recipes for Mars. And actually, my mission, the main focus of my mission was a food study. We were looking at new food systems for Mars missions, for future Mars missions. And they were looking as well as the [inaudible] how our sense of taste and smell changed over the course of the mission.
Dr. Regina Barber: Of just eating freeze dried things?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. But, we had, so a lot of people when I tell them we were eating freeze dried foods, the first thing that comes to their minds is, “Oh my gosh that must be like super boring and horrible food.”
Dr. Regina Barber: But you rehydrated it with water and you add spices.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And we would spice it.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. We would season it. So, we actually came up with really good meals and recipes that …
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … were tasty; were very tasty. We really enjoyed it. That was one of the best, you know, times, you know, like the time when we would come and eat together at the table. But, I started missing textures.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And that was like, “hmm.” That was interesting. That hit me that I realized that what is happening here is that I am missing those textures. I was eating chicken, or ground beef that was freeze dried and then we would cook it.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, again, it was the same type of, you know, like …
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: Like you were missing like a fresh apple …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: and then like a chunk of that meat instead of …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct. [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: … it being somehow processed. Not even that much processing. Freeze dried isn’t even that bad but …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. So that was like, I want say that it was challenging but it was interesting that those types of dreams started haunting me by the end of the third month.
[Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: And you were saying they’re vivid.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: So your brain was like, “I really want this.”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: “I’m really craving for it; really craving for it. Really craving for it.” But I would say that in terms of, like, the main challenges, one of the main challenges for me was, I mean, I was married by then. You know.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Gasps.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, I mean my husband has been a strong supporter of all these crazy adventures …
Dr. Regina Barber: Wow.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … that I have decided to pursue with my life.
Dr. Regina Barber: Did you have any children at the time?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: No. No, no. We don’t, we don’t have children.
Dr. Regina Barber: That would have been hard.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] Yeah. And because we had some delay in the communication, right? So we were in the simulation and by the end I think it was the third quarter of the mission, so the program started applying these, like, communication delays where emails were going to take 20 minutes to reach, you know, it’s destination, right?
Dr. Regina Barber: That’s not that bad but did it start to bother you? The 20 minutes?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: No. Well I would say it was … I also started experiencing these, like, anxiety right? Like I would write these emails to my husband and then I would not hear from him. I would not hear back from him in like, one hour or so.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm. And you’re like, “What happened?”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Uh-huh, exactly. And I started just, I became very paranoid. I was like, “Oh my gosh, maybe he fell,” you know?
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah. Car crash.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: In the shower. Oh yeah, “He might be dead.”
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And like …
[Laughter.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … the mind can trick you under those stressful conditions. And then, you know, he would email me back and he would say, “No I went for a run. I was just running!”
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] So I realized that might be a huge challenge, you know …
Dr. Regina Barber: Oh yeah!
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … for future missions on Mars. That communication delay and just the fact that, you know, we are in a setting in mission-like conditions in which your mind is set to think about, okay we are here to meet mission objectives but we are here and we need to survive.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So it’s like that survival type of mindset.
Dr. Regina Barber: It’s a fight or flight sense all the time.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct, correct. So I think …
Dr. Regina Barber: And that can actually do stuff to your mind.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Oh yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: There’s been studies of if you’re always in flight …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: … it can seriously damage [laughing] certain parts of you and give you lots of anxiety.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, yeah. So that was challenging by the end of the month.
Dr. Regina Barber: Were there anyone, or was there anyone on the mission who did psychology or sociology or any human behavior that was on the mission so they could actually tell you about like, “This is what you’re feeling right now and it’s textbook”?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, there were a few psychological research projects going on. We were human subjects, right?
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So we signed up to be part of this crew.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And we volunteered to be part of all of these studies and there were a few psychological based studies that were looking at crew dynamics and crew cohesion under mission conditions. I was part of the first HI-SEAS mission that was mostly focused on the food study but after the first mission, the program, the HI-SEAS program has been heavily focused on research, on psychology research. The human element of it may be the greatest challenge we will face when we are ready to send humans to Mars.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So the program is looking at what are those personality traits and not just individual personalities but …
Dr. Regina Barber: Group.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … team, group personalities that will make the best teams, you know? You need teams of people that are not going to end up killing each other. [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: Well I mean, there’s so many sci-fi movies, sci-fi episodes of this idea of people going mad, you know, in groups. There was a study that I make all of my students listen to. We do these things called class norms.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: So at the beginning of every quarter, we kind of get together the first day and say, “Hey, what kind of class would we like?”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: You know, what do you expect out of your classmates so that you can have a good group dynamic in these group problems. And I have them listen to an NPR, it’s This American Life, but the episode is called Ruining it for the Rest of Us. And they talk about bad apple behaviors. So there’s like the jerk in the group, or the slacker in the group, or the depressive pessimist. And those are the three kind of traits that this researcher studies. And we found that it wasn’t the best person in the group that ultimately will tell you how well a group will do. It’s the worst person.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And like, the people with the, you know, the actor who was acting like a jerk, a slacker, a depressive pessimist actually performed 30 – 40% worse than all of the other groups. And it was really, really interesting. And long story short, the research also found that there was only one instance in which the bad apple, the jerk, the slacker, the depressive pessimist, didn’t actually ruin it.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And it was when somebody was a very good leader in the group. And it turned out this kid was like the son of a diplomat, or something like that, and the reason he diffused these things is he just kept asking questions and he made sure everyone had a voice. And because he was there, he kind of negated and what’s the word, evened out that kind of jerk behavior.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Excellent.
Dr. Regina Barber: And it was really, really interesting. And so, the more you talk about this the more I think about being in a room with five other people. Like, I can’t stand my siblings, you know.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: So you know like, to a certain point, right? And so …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And I should say so that people have a reference, this was a 36-foot diameter dome.
Dr. Regina Barber: So I mean, that’s insane!
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: I mean, people advise couples to live together before they get married because living together is one of the hardest things in the world. I mean, we know that as humans. So, I mean, I’m not going to have you call out any of your friends …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: … but I mean, it must have been hard.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: So, like siblings …
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm, yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: … at some point.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So I would say, yeah I mean, yes it was harder for some people than others.
[♪ Janelle Monae singing Wondaland ♪]
♪ Dance in the trees
♪ Paint mysteries
♪ The magnificent droid plays there
♪ Your magic mind
♪ Makes love to mine
♪ I think I’m in love, angel
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ I gotta get back to Wondaland
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ Me thinks she left her underpants
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ I gotta get back to Wondaland
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I wanted to share with the audience that when I reflect about the experience, because I honestly had a lot of fun …
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … on Mars. [Laughing.] I enjoyed the experience to the fullest. The first time I saw that habitat I felt like, “Wow this is like a dream come true.” And I actually felt like a specimen in a test. It was like wow! I have been working doing research and science for all these years and now I’m am the science that these people are going to be looking at, that they’re going to be investigating. So it was a fascinating experience, but the habitat never felt small to me. Never, never, never.
My husband, after the mission, when the mission was over, he came to Hawaii and we’re going to have our Hawaiian vacation after this …
Dr. Regina Barber: You earned it at that point.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] Yeah. And I wanted him, I wanted him to see the habitat. So, we hiked and he looked at me and just said to me, “Are you crazy? How were you able to do this? This is so claustrophobic!”
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And I was like, “Really?” You know. So, just different perspectives, you know, when we look at things. And I think just the fact that I grew up in, for me my house when I was little was a big house, but I guess for other people with bigger houses it was a very tiny house. And having to share all spaces because back home in Puerto Rico, in our Latino culture that thing of just, you know, having your space, I mean we don’t have that. That’s not a concept that we actually comprehend, you know?
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: You know, all spaces are shared, period. [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: Well, I mean, my dad’s family is Mexican-American and my mom is Chinese but like I remember my Mexican-American family, just like everyone’s in each other’s business. Like if somebody’s having a barbecue, why aren’t we all invited?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Uh-huh.
Dr. Regina Barber: Like that seems insane. Like I heard that you are having somebody over, so therefore everyone’s going to come over. And it’s like everyone’s in everyone’s business. And I remember, my husband is very, very white, and he, I remember, he’d come to our house and like doors would be open when people were going like to the bathroom and showering and stuff.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: And he’d be like, “Why is this happening?” I’m like, “I don’t know.” It’s like, “Uhh.” It’s just very, yeah this notion of kind of individualism and having your own space wasn’t something I grew up with either.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct. Correct. And I think you have articulated very well …
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: … these contrasts between individualism and inter-dependence, or you know …
Dr. Regina Barber: And community.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, community is just a different worldview. So for me, I felt that this was like a 24 hour 7 party, you know …
Dr. Regina Barber: Right!
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: People that became my friends and I can tell you, we are still friends after those 4 months.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah, I think that you’d have to be.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. And something that worked and helped us a lot is that prior to the mission we considered hypothetical scenarios about how we were going to solve conflict.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, there was …
Dr. Regina Barber: It’s like a marriage.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: You do that in your marriage, you know?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] Yes. So we used a lot the art of visualization prior to the mission. So we would have these conference calls and we would come up with, okay, different scenarios or potential conflicts. And we would have these discussions about how we were going to solve it. And so a lot of them also did a lot of research and read books on how, you know, people used to solve conflict in these types of extreme expeditions to Antarctica and things like that.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So I think visualization helped a lot to help us prepare for anticipated challenges. So that was a key for mission success I would say.
Dr. Regina Barber: And I like what you’re saying about visualization because you’re also basically saying you committed. Like, “We’re committing that we’re going to do this.”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: “We’re not saying that … ”
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct.
Dr. Regina Barber: … that like, you know, I said I was going to do this so therefore I’m going to do this.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: I like this also, when you were saying that your upbringing kind of helped you deal with this. So I’m guessing NASA and this program really do look for people that kind of have those skills. I mean, my daughter’s an only child and I know other only children and it’s very hard for them to like, kind of share that attention and share certain spaces.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm.
Dr. Regina Barber: And sometimes it’s easy. It just depends. You know what I mean? I feel like, I mean we all bring something, you know. And I do want to also add, when you were saying there is a difference between individualism and community. But also in my family, I don’t want to say that it’s perfect, when we’re all in each other’s business it’s not only because we want to make sure we can help each other. Sometimes it’s just sheer selfishness or like we want to actually know what the other person is doing.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: Sometimes it’s gossip. [Laughing.] But, in the end, that gossip can maybe help you figure out, oh that person needs help now so I can actually help them.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: But I don’t want to say one thing is better than the other, it’s just sometimes a skill can help.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And again, it’s a matter of that fact that we were in the simulation, I mean, living that simulation or being a part of Mars simulations, requires you to proactively set or develop a mindset that, yes, you are on Mars. We needed to tell ourselves, yes, we are on Mars.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And we depend on each other for nation’s success and for survival.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, the fact that our rules were so well-defined, we understood our role during the mission. We understood what we needed to do in order to succeed and in order to survive. We understood how we depend on one another. That mindset, I think, it’s powerful.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And makes things, yeah. Yeah. We were able to work together and that’s part of the things that after the mission I reflected on, you know, the fact that that habitat was so small. It was like a micro, you know, we had a micro community there.
Dr. Regina Barber: Right.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We were the only people we were seeing for six months. So we built community. And in that microhabitat our role was very well understood. We understood our role. But as we move to a larger habitat, like, you know, earth, then we lose perspective.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We lose perspective on our role in the grand scheme of things. Even the fact that in the habitat, you know, we are in these survival kind of modes and we needed to be very considerate and very careful in the way we were using water and life support resources. So, resources were limited. Water was limited; food was limited. And so we were very conscious, right, on how we were using all these resources.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: But then we escaped that pseudo-Mars and then entered Earth and started, you know, our lives here on Earth. And you just forget about it.
Dr. Regina Barber: You fall back into it very easily?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. It’s just now things are in abundance and you just get this false sense of safety.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: That I don’t think we necessarily have. Sure, I mean we have more things on Earth than astronauts will have on Mars.
Dr. Regina Barber: Mmhmm.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: But our resources are limited.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: And we are, we live in a habitat. I mean, the air is a habitat. This is our island home in the universe And just thinking about that; thinking about, if I could apply the same lessons that I learned on Mars here on Earth, I wonder, you know, what this world, you know would be like, you know?
Dr. Regina Barber: I was thinking about this. It’s just easy to forget. It’s easy to forget.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber: My mom works for Delta so she got us bumped up to first class and I was like, “This is so!” I’d just gotten to a point in my life that I’m financially okay. It’s like, I’m 36 and this is like the first, like this happened 5 months ago. You know? I’m finally at a point where I feel okay.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: And I’m like driving down the street and I’m like going to the grocery store and getting what I want. And I’m like, it’s so easy to forget what it was like to not be able to do that. To not be able to get what you want.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. Right.
Dr. Regina Barber: To not be able to drive a car that doesn’t like squeak and you know, it actually works well. And to get gas and not have to worry. It’s so easy to go into complacency.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Correct, correct. It is.
Dr. Regina Barber: And I think that’s kind of what you’re saying, because we have so much. We forgot what it was like to not have that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Mmhmm, mmhmm. Yeah, exactly. So it was quite interesting.
Dr. Regina Barber: So I always ask my guests always the same thing when we end. So two things. It depends on whatever you want to answer first. One: what kind of way does your field get represented in pop culture, and like movies and TV? Is your field, your science, what you want to do in life, is it represented well? Is it not represented well? And then the other thing I want to ask, is like, now what is your next step? like, now, I mean, you’ve done this, you’re working for engraving and printing and for the government but like how are you going to keep on going and be that astronaut? So either one of those is fine.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Okay. Excellent. So, as a nanoscientist I am very aware of, you know, the ways the general public may perceive nano stuff.
Dr. Regina Barber: Like Ant-Man, the movie? [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah or the nanorobots or you know. Like people have asked me, are you talking about, you know, techniques where we would be able to miniaturize people so that they can, you know, be injected, you know, in the blood stream of people?
Dr. Regina Barber: Right, right. Like all those movies, yes.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Because of all those movies that we watched when we were little. No, we are not there quite yet.
[Laughter]
Dr. Regina Barber: That’s a very diplomatic way to say that.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Yeah. [Laughing.] So, I would say a lot needs to be done in order to educate the public of the benefits of this field of research, you know, the benefits of nanomaterials. Also, our responsibility, you know, social responsibility to make materials that yes will have a good impact on society but also that, our responsibility to do it right so that, you know, we bring solutions to the problem and not create, you know, more problems.
Dr. Regina Barber: More problems. [Laughing.]
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: More problems. And regarding what is next, space has been my calling. It’s my lifelong passion. I think at some point, you know, I will be transitioning again, reinventing, you know, myself to a career that is more aligned with that passion for space. I am Dr. Yes, I mean.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.] Dr. Yes.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: We have that, you know, that emerging galactic CEO Richard Branson, the interpreter. He calls himself Dr. Yes but yeah, I am the female version of that.
Dr. Regina Barber: I don’t think he has a PhD though.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: No he doesn’t, he doesn’t. Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber: So you’re a more accurate Dr. Yes.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: [Laughing.] Yeah. Yeah. There is one of my favorite quotes is, you know, if someone offers you an opportunity to do something and you don’t know if you will be able to do it, just say yes. And learn how to do it after, you know, after you said yes.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So, you know I take that to heart. And I am open, I am open to the opportunities that may come.
Dr. Regina Barber: Yeah.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: So let’s see.
Dr. Regina Barber: Well I want to thank you for talking to me. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you are like urging to say or to share?
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: I think we covered pretty much [Laughing.]
Dr. Regina Barber: I did some amount of research, so, not a lot. But I want to thank you for talking to me and you’re really inspirational. And you’re so, like, positive. I’m like, you know, a sarcastic, you know, person. So it’s very hard [laughing] for me to be positive all the time. But I really, I mean I look up to you. You’re just so awesome and positive.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Thanks. You are doing wonderful things.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Scoffs] Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: You are. You are.
Dr. Regina Barber: [Laughing.] I’m going to shake your hand like an adult. Thank you.
Dr. Yajaira Sierra Sastre: Thank you. [Laughing.]
[♪ Janelle Monae singing Wondaland ♪]
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ Me thinks she left her underpants
♪ The grass grows inside
♪ The music floats you gently on your toes
♪ Touch the nose, he’ll change your clothes to tuxedos
♪ Don’t freak and hide
♪ I’ll be your secret santa, do you mind?
♪ Don’t resist
♪ The fairygods will have a fit
♪ We should dance
♪ Dance in the trees
♪ Paint mysteries
♪ The magnificent droid plays there
>> Thanks for listening to Spark Science. If you missed any of the show, go to our website sparksciencenow.com. If there’s a science idea you’re curious about, send us a message on Twitter or Facebook at sparksciencenow. Spark Science is produced in collaboration with KMRE Spark Radio and Western Washington University. Our producer is Regina Barber DeGraaff, our audio engineers are Natalie Moore, Andrew Nordin, and Tori Highly. Our theme music is “Chemical Calisthenics” by Blackalicious and “Wondaland” by Janelle Monae.
[♪Blackalicious rapping Chemical Calisthenics ♪]
♪ Lead, gold, tin, iron, platinum, zinc, when I rap you think
♪ Iodine nitrate activate
♪ Red geranium, the only difference is I transmit sound
♪ Balance was unbalanced then you add a little talent in.
[End of podcast.]