What is it like to be entrusted with running a university while being originally trained as an engineer? Check out our 4th Season Finale where we interview WWU President Sabah Randhawa.
We discuss science’s origins related to the leisure class, parking optimization and how training in science, technology, engineering or math can lead to problem-solving in other parts of life.
Video of this interview coming soon but in the meantime, check out this wonderful clip, referred to in our interview, of President Randhawa explaining cricket.
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[♪ Blackalicious rapping Chemical Calisthenics ♪]
♪ Neutron, proton, mass defect, lyrical oxidation, yo irrelevant
♪ Mass spectrograph, pure electron volt, atomic energy erupting
♪ As I get all open on betatron, gamma rays thermo cracking
♪ Cyclotron and any and every mic
♪ You’re on trans iridium, if you’re always uranium
♪ Molecules, spontaneous combustion, pow
♪ Law of de-fi-nite pro-por-tion, gain-ing weight
♪ I’m every element around
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaff: Welcome to Spark Science, where we share stories of human curiosity. I’m here today with the President of Western Washington University, Sabah Randhawa. How’s it going?
Sabah Randhawa: Good! How are you doing?
Dr. DeGraaff: So, we wanted to have you on the show because I’m a physicist, you’re an engineer. You’re now a big administrative person, but you started out as a scientist. I wanted to talk to you about that path. So, we always ask, like, um, guests the same questions every single time. We wanted to turn back time. When did you get into science? What sparked your interest into science, before we get into what is it like to be a president?
Dr. Randhawa: I think it was mathematics.
Dr. DeGraaff: Really?
Dr. Randhawa: For me, it was math that truly got me interested. I have to say, when you sent me the note, it made me think a little bit about the past.
Dr. DeGraaff: That’s good, right?
Dr. Randhawa: It is good!
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly. So, one of the things was that I went to a very different schooling system in Pakistan, where there was a lot less flexibility, either in the school system or the university.
Dr. DeGraaff: So, you’re like, on a track very early on.
Dr. Randhawa: I’m on a track very early on in my career, and I like mathematics. So I ended up in mathematics. So one big regret I have in my life is that I didn’t get to explore biological sciences very much. Once you pick a track in that system, you’re on that track. It’s a lot of time going back and trying to take courses in whatever else. Not sure if I would have pursued that, but it was really the interest in‒
Dr. DeGraaff: You never know!
Dr. Randhawa: You never know, exactly. Exactly. But it was mathematics that got me going.
Dr. DeGraaff: So when you say the track is kind of figured out for you early on, how early is that?
Dr. Randhawa: For me at the time, so this was many, many moons ago, we were talking about going to school in the… I graduated from high school in ’72. So at that time, you’re talking about 7th or 8th grade.
Dr. DeGraaff: Wow.
Dr. Randhawa: And so, and then I went into O levels. So it was a British system‒part of the British Commonwealth, Pakistan at that time. And so, you get into O levels in the 9th grade and then O levels, A levels, but it’s really 7th, 8th grade that you are doomed, or one way or another, and depending on what you select.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. So you’re in 8th or 9th grade and you’re like, “I like math,” and then they kind of track you into a physical science track.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: But was there anything along that path that kind of piqued your interest?
Dr. Randhawa: I’m not sure if I would have a clear answer just because of memory over time has really… But I think what really was sort of not pure mathematics but really the applied math and how it is used in different areas and how critical it is, really, at the core of center whether you’re talking about physics or chemistry or what have you.
Dr. DeGraaff: So were you one of those students that was very much, like, “This is intuitive so I understand this problem” versus the theory wasn’t as important?
Dr. Randhawa: Even when I decided to go into engineering after that, the choices in terms of what engineering field I pick had a lot to do with the question that you asked.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right.
Dr. Randhawa: So I never… I have to admit, I never was sort of a hands-on engineer. I never was great working on the cars or doing those types of things.
Dr. DeGraaff: Opening the toaster, you weren’t interested.
Dr. Randhawa: Opening the toaster. But I was interested in systems and math being at the center of it.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. So I guess that is kind of in between, because I remember growing up, and I went here at Western, and I remember being in the physics department and having math majors say, like, “Let’s solve this problem,” and there’s six solutions. But physicists can look at those six solutions and be like, “Well, these are the only two that can actually happen.” And the math majors will be like, “I don’t understand what you’re saying.” So you’re saying, somewhere in between that was where you were kind of heading.
Dr. Randhawa: Right, right.
Dr. DeGraaff: So what made you want to come work here in the United States?
Dr. Randhawa: So, there were a couple things, if I can just go back, that really set up the trajectory for the future. I did my undergraduate in chemical engineering, which was great. In fact, of the options that were available, that was one that was, for me, was from the process-orientation, from the systems-orientation, worked out great.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah.
Dr. Randhawa: Because, you know, interest in controls and things of that nature, which are more mathematically driven than trying to do manipulations by hand or what have you‒
Dr. DeGraaff: Right, you’re not making molecules.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly. You’re designing it more than making it.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right.
Dr. Randhawa: And then I went to work for a British company, Imperial Chemical Industries, that had a big presence in the subcontinent of the time. And I went to work in this facility that was out in the boonies. It was away from civilization and you were really cut off, even though the distance wasn’t that much, but in 1975-76, it took forever to get there.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay.
Dr. Randhawa: I was hired as an engineer to work on quality issues and so on, but as serendipity have it, about two weeks into my job, a number of what they call shift managers quit.
Dr. DeGraaff: Just a number of them?
Dr. Randhawa: Two or three of them.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: So no questions asked, I was called in and said, “You’re going to be a shift manager.”
Dr. DeGraaff: Wow. And how long had you been working for them at that point?
Dr. Randhawa: Three weeks?
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, lord. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: And so, I got two or three weeks’ training, and then I was put in charge of a shift. And this was a shift that rotated every week, so you had morning shift and then afternoon and then graveyard. The reason I’m giving you a background is what’s coming next.
So, in the morning and afternoon, I was in charge of about 40 people who worked on the facility. At night, I was in charge of the entire plant, 200 – 300 people.
Dr. DeGraaff: That’s so scary.
Dr. Randhawa: It is scary!
Dr. DeGraaff: [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: And, you know, I was pleased that I did really well, but I think what really shaped me was the timing of those shifts.
Dr. DeGraaff: Really? Why?
Dr. Randhawa: When in the afternoon and graveyard shift, I was on my own. Everyone else was working. This was a small community. Actually, there was a colony that the company had built pretty much for the workers because‒
Dr. DeGraaff: [Speaking over Randhawa.] It’s basically a town for the company.
Dr. Randhawa: ‒there was nothing around! It’s a town for them, for…
Dr. DeGraaff: So, let me get this straight. You had just finished undergrad, or you’re still in undergrad?
Dr. Randhawa: I finished undergrad.
Dr. DeGraaff: And you just, so you only had a bachelor’s degree, and three weeks in‒
Dr. Randhawa: And three weeks into, I’m running a ship.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay, got it. Just to be clear.
Dr. Randhawa: So, particularly in the graveyard and the afternoon shift, I was on my own. So what I did was two things. One, I went and played billiard on my own. They had a club, and so I got really good at that.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right.
Dr. Randhawa: But the other thing I did was, I read a lot, which I hadn’t done as much before going in, and read things that had nothing to do with engineering, or literature, and a bunch of other things that are very worldly and hands-on. And that really opened my mind and helped shape up a lot of things that happened thereafter.
Dr. DeGraaff: So it was just downtime!
Dr. Randhawa: It was just downtime. In the morning shift, so that you know, there were two things I did. I played badminton when everyone else was done, and I got really good playing bridge.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, wow.
Dr. Randhawa: Very good bridge. I haven’t played for a long time, but that was the… so that, particularly just exposure to reading, yeah. And one of the things I read during that time was also about systems engineering. I had a colleague there who had a systems engineering degree from England at the time.
Dr. DeGraaff: Give us a definition of what exactly systems engineering is, because we say engineering and our listeners and watchers think of, like, buildings, or they think of mechanics.
Dr. Randhawa: Sure, sure. Here in the States, I think the closest it comes to is really in the field of industrial engineering, but particularly around optimization. If you have a system, how do you work it around constraints so you can optimize whatever your objectives or rules happen to be?
Dr. DeGraaff: So it’s kind of like management, slash…
Dr. Randhawa: But it’s driven mathematically.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay.
Dr. Randhawa: So that’s what really drove my interests when I decided to go to graduate school.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay. I find this super interesting, because I think when we talk about downtime, it made me instantly think about, where did the sciences originate? They originated because people had time. It was in the aristocracy. It was people who had money.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: And I remember really wrestling with that idea, because growing up, and still probably, I’m a very much of a class warrior. So I was like, “No! It can’t be the rich!” But it is! You have to have time to actually think about these problems and work through them, right? Because you can’t‒
Dr. Randhawa: Right, you know, watch the water flow by and think‒
Dr. DeGraaff: [Speaking over Randhawa.] And just think about it!
Dr. Randhawa: ‒you know, why are the ripples there?
Dr. DeGraaff: Right! And then the other thing that made me think about it, about something when you were talking is that, basically you had time to also self-reflect, right? You’re not just working from 9-5 and then being exhausted at home. You actually have some time to reflect, like, “What do I want to do? What was happening today?” All that kinda stuff, which is hard!
Dr. Randhawa: Which is hard, and I was fortunate from that perspective. Graveyard shift from 11 at night to 7 in the morning, sleep for 5-6 hours, then what? There was no civilization close by to go and watch a movie or go and spend time with friends. I am on my own. All my colleagues are at work.
Dr. DeGraaff: Are you more of an introvert? Because I think I might have gone insane.
Dr. Randhawa: Again, it gave me a lot of time to just sit back.
[♪ Janelle Monae singing Wondaland ♪]
♪ Early late at night
♪ I wander off into a land
♪ You can go, but you mustn’t tell a soul
♪ There’s a world inside
♪ Where dreamers meet each other
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay, so you kind of are reading all this stuff. You’re like, “Maybe I’m interested in this.” You apply. You get into grad school. And then, you kind of ‒ do you take that kind of traditional path to become a professor? Get your PhD and just do that tenure job?
Dr. Randhawa: Yeah, I will also tell you that I had no intention to become a professor.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: My goal was that I’ll do graduate school. My dad ‒ both my parents didn’t get a college degree. They were really interested in me getting education. We didn’t have good graduate education in Pakistan at the time, particularly in engineering. So my goal was to finish engineering and then maybe get into an organization, if not industry, but something like Mattel [sp?] that sort of intersects with working on applied problems and sort of the academic exploration or creative part of it.
Dr. DeGraaff: But not being in front of a class.
Dr. Randhawa: But not in front of ‒ that was not in my thinking at all. And I got into it, and in fact I did my graduate program at Arizona State University, and my department head of the time, Dick Smith, had asked me a number of times to teach, because they had PhD students teach a course or two.
Dr. DeGraaff: And they, like, needed you to, probably, too.
Dr. Randhawa: And he needed to, and I always made a good excuse, and he was very nice, and I said, “I’m working. I’m collecting data, whatever.”
Dr. DeGraaff: “My leg hurts.”
Dr. Randhawa: “My leg hurts.” Until he called me one day at home and I couldn’t say no. He was teaching a course and he said, “I need to go into surgery tomorrow.”
Dr. DeGraaff: Man, you can’t say no to that.
Dr. Randhawa: “It’s an emergency, I would like you to cover my course.” And that changed the course. I have to tell you, I absolutely killed myself that four or six weeks I covered for him. I was there at night lecturing to empty rooms. You know how it is when you start.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yes.
Dr. Randhawa: You have no confidence, you don’t know what the hell is going to happen tomorrow.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yes, yes. You see the glaring eyes and the confusion and then the sleeping.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly. But I taught that. Once I did it, I enjoyed it. I though, you know, it is hard work, and it’s going to require how I approach it and certainly a different path, but it’s certainly worth trying. And then, my chair, the head of the department, and he asked me if I’d like to teach, and I said, “Sure.” So I taught two or three courses for the remaining about nine months or so I was there. I taught a couple of courses in summer and then one in each of the two semesters, and you know the rest of the story.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah, I feel like your life kind of has these instances where you’ve been forced to do things you don’t wanna do and then you like them. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: The main thing is, what I learned from it, you’re right, is to give it a shot before saying no.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah.
Dr. Randhawa: One always has an opportunity to backtrack and do something else with life, but not exploring an opportunity when it’s there for you, maybe you can discover something. We can discover something about ourselves.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah. I mean, I remember people always, my other physics friends, because I’m very much of an extrovert, and I was like, “Let’s hang out! Let’s study together!” And I remember telling people, like, I would never just wanna hang out by myself. That sounds like hell. I don’t wanna listen to my own thoughts; that’s awful. But the more I actually did that after I gave birth to my daughter, and I was like, need to be alone. Can’t be mommy all the time. I started to really realize I liked it. I love what you said. Like, being in front of that class, kind of once you let go of that anxiety, you can just have fun with it.
Dr. Randhawa: [Speaking over DeGraaff.] Exactly. Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s like a performance. Sometimes I’ve heard professors say, they put on their, like, professor hat, where they’re somebody else.
Dr. Randhawa: Right. You have to be your own self. There needs to be some authenticity in terms of what you are saying.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. But, almost for them, I think it’s, like, being up there, it’s kind of a performance, so that helps them. But yeah, no, for me, I love it. I love teaching, especially in the summers.
So you become a professor. How did this path happen? You were I think an associate dean, and you probably did other administrative jobs, so how did that happen?
Dr. Randhawa: One thing I did learn from becoming a professor is “don’t say no.” In Oregon State, an opportunity came up to be a department head, initially on an interim basis. I said I’d give it a shot. I knew that working when I did the shift engineer business or shift manager business, I was pretty pleased overall even though it was a difficult environment just being out of college, a unionized plant between management and the shift workers.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, so you’re very familiar!
Dr. Randhawa: I’m right in the middle of that intersection, if you would. But I thought I was able to handle it well, so I gave it a shot. One thing I learned was that one thing I lost was the direct connection with students, which I had always valued. And even today, I have great friends to graduate students and seniors I work with when I was a faculty member. But in administration, you lose that. But I think what I learned was that perhaps you could make a difference at a different level.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right, yeah.
Dr. Randhawa: It’s like the nodes in the network. You can’t be every place, but perhaps you can enable other nodes, other faculty members‒
Dr. DeGraaff: [Speaking over Randhawa.] It’s a chain reaction.
Dr. Randhawa: ‒and hire them, mentor them, exactly. So that’s what then kept me going. As I moved up the administration, the other thing I really liked is that the higher up I move, the more I knew how little I knew about anything at all. Even within engineering, even the narrow slice of what I was doing, but that’s a broad field. When you get at a university level and you talk about offering 150 degrees or 88 degrees, you’re just awed at the amount of the creativity, the scholarship, the knowledge that exists and how much there is to learn out there.
Dr. DeGraaff: I like that, because I think that in the sciences we’re kinda taught that you can’t know everything. You can have this specialization, but there are other people working on all these others things. For me, I think that that’s kind of part of our training. But was there other parts of the training being an engineer that kind of helped you, you think?
Dr. Randhawa: Sure.
Dr. DeGraaff: What in our STEM training helps with administration?
Dr. Randhawa: Absolutely. So I tell you, even today, this whole notion of optimization. If I have to go back, I’d teach it anytime. There are two subjects I really love teaching. One was this mathematical optimization. The other was assimilation modeling. So if I have to go back, I still, you wouldn’t believe it, how much mentally I use it in the work I do today.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah?
Dr. Randhawa: Systems may be different.
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s a different kind of system.
Dr. Randhawa: It’s a different kind of systems, but… constraints are different, resources are different, you’re talking about human resources versus physical resources.
Dr. DeGraaff: The interactions are different.
Dr. Randhawa: Interactions are different. But I think, from a philosophical perspective, we’re talking about very similar systems or analogies. I think the key thing is not to blindly use the output from the systems.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. It’s to have it in the back of your head.
Dr. Randhawa: How does it inform you in terms of what you’re going to do? But I still, a lot of times when I’m thinking about complex problems, I go back to thinking, okay, so I’m talking about a complex system here, there’s a lot of interactions. I think about nonlinear stochastic systems. So there’s a lot of probabilities associated with all this thing. They’re all nonlinear, so they can’t be a straight line through from here to there.
Dr. DeGraaff: Everything is nonlinear.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: With humans!
Dr. Randhawa: It’s dynamic; it’s continuously changing. So how do I mentally figure this out?
Dr. DeGraaff: But there’s always a root to it, right?
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: There’s always a root to a conflict or a root to the solution, where the solution will come from.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly. I at least mentally think about it a lot, at least my graduate training around this whole thing. Then this notion about, what are some alternatives, here, which goes back to modeling and how you try different things out without really being locked into any one of them.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right, being flexible.
Dr. Randhawa: Being flexible, exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: I love… the more you talk about it, the more I think about physics training. We always tell our students, “This will help you with problem-solving, this will help you with problem-solving.” But it’s a little more complex. It also helps you with perseverance and also having a mental picture of everything that you have at your disposal. So that’s kind of physics. What is given? What are all the variables? I remember telling my husband, “I will see a problem in real life that has nothing to do with physics, like, where‒” Oh, go ahead, sorry.
Dr. Randhawa: No, please.
Dr. DeGraaff: So yesterday, I got a call from Dory’s school, or Dory’s camp, and they were like, “She needs a swimsuit.” And I’m like, “I don’t have a key to my house, right now. I don’t have a car.” And I had to actually figure out how to get a swimsuit, which was at a friend’s house. So there was like, five people involved, two cars, but I figured it out within 15 minutes. Again, nothing to do with physics, but I had to think about all the resources I had. What was the main goal? What is the end goal?
Dr. Randhawa: Absolutely.
Dr. DeGraaff: What is the least amount of bother I can give people? I think we use our science training all the time for non-science things.
Dr. Randhawa: I agree with you. I was also going to share another example, which has nothing to do with work. I use it, I would say, 70% of the time when I’m driving to a parking lot that is full. One of the classic problems in optimization is that you are going to, say, a movie, or a theater or whatnot, or a football game or what-have-you, or a Mariner’s game. Where do you park so you can minimize the time and distance you have to walk to the game? So if you get too close, you may not get it, so you may end up on the other side far away. When do you decide to take the first spot?
Dr. DeGraaff: Right!
Dr. Randhawa: Yeah! It’s a pretty complex problem.
Dr. DeGraaff: I think about that constantly!
Dr. Randhawa: I think about it all the time, from the perspective of, okay, this is a dynamic programming problem. When I go into a parking lot, okay, do I take the spot? Is it safe enough for the car, particularly when it’s raining seven months during the year?
Dr. DeGraaff: You’re talking about here!
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: I love that. You have to take into account all these things. When you’re at the grocery store, you also have to take into account, you have to bring the cart back. Now, how close are you to the cart return? And you only have an hour and a half to shop because you have to be at this next meeting. I know you have a million meetings, and I’ve seen you at the grocery store. You have to think about, how long am I actually gonna be looking for a parking spot? There’s two entrances, so which entrance do I take?
Dr. Randhawa: But I use my training a lot in my thinking in terms of how I structure mentally, particularly when there’s complex problems, really complex things. You need to provide some structure to it to get a handle on it. And that’s what, as you are saying, to where training in STEM field is really helpful. How do you structure the really complex, unstructured problem? Not that you are tied to that structure, but to at least get started. And then you can build complexity to it as you go along.
Dr. DeGraaff: I love that. So we’re gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we’re gonna get into Western and your path here, and maybe talk about your path at Oregon. And then we’ll talk about pop culture, because I can’t stop.
[♪ Janelle Monae singing Wondaland ♪]
♪ Dance in the trees
♪ Paint mysteries
♪ The magnificent droid plays there
♪ Your magic mind
♪ Makes love to mine
♪ I think I’m in love, angel
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ I gotta get back to Wondaland
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ Me thinks she left her underpants
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ I gotta get back to Wondaland
Dr. DeGraaff: Welcome back to Spark Science. We’re talking to Western Washington University President Sabah Randhawa. We were talking about optimization. We were talking about being a scientist in academia and using those skills in various forms.
I kinda wanna talk about your role now as the president of Western. I know that you’re in many meetings. You’re in these meetings, and sometimes you’re the only STEM person there. So, what is that like? I mean, you’ve been in this environment in academia for so long that it might not be new, but when it first started, what was that like, I guess?
Dr. Randhawa: That’s a really good question. I think there was a bigger factor at play than being the only STEM person. That was certainly there, and typically meetings, my style is that I don’t, you know… I don’t talk all the time.
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s the opposite for me. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: Well, I don’t know about that! I try to listen and then try to see if I can synthesize it in my head and get the information together. I thought more than being the only STEM person, the part that initially took more work on my part was more culture. Coming from a different culture in a culture where norms were different and trying to learn about that, trying to adapt but not blindly. And how do I go about sort of navigating that path?
I didn’t consciously think about being the only STEM person. I do think there were times that it was really awkward when you had people who were from other fields that were mostly non-STEM. But generally, at least I felt people respected my perspective. They may not care about it, but at least to my face, they didn’t, you know…
At least at OSU, this whole process started… I think there was enough respect in terms of what I brought that at least people were open to listening to it. But I thought that in many ways that the cultural factor, at least for me internally, overshadowed the STEM piece. And I know they’re not mutually exclusive. They work together as a whole in terms of how it all comes together: being a STEM person and being from a different culture and country, not being from the mainstream culture, and… I don’t know if I’m making any sense here or not.
Dr. DeGraaff: No, you’re making complete sense because I will say, as we keep on saying STEM, for our listeners and viewers, as science, technology, engineering, and math. But for me, I didn’t come from a country. I grew up 20 miles north of here. But academia is such a different culture from what I’m used to. We were just talking during the break about TV. For me, you’re right. I’m in a lot of meetings, too, on campus. I talk to a lot of people who aren’t science majors or scientists.
You’re right; initially they have this respect because science is up there and respected, but it is really hard to kind of be in this environment and come from a different culture. So for me, I came from the United States, but it is a different culture. The mainstream culture of academia is not what I grew up with.
Dr. Randhawa: Same here. I’m not in your shoes, but I would think, what would confound in your case would be STEM plus gender.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Randhawa: That’s a different confounding factor.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah. For me, it’s like STEM, gender, and race. Our town, as you know, and a lot of our listeners know, it’s a very white town. For me, being in the room, I’m sometimes the only scientist, I’m the only person of color in the room, as well. It is very off-putting, but you’re right. You don’t think about it in that moment, but something will be said.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: Or you think about it a week from there, or you’re in that meeting with the same people five times, and you’re like, “Oh, wait a minute. Maybe that’s why people aren’t understanding what I’m saying or totally getting my point of view, not the words I’m saying.”
Dr. Randhawa: I hear you. I don’t know what the right word is, but it certainly compounds, or‒
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s intersectionality.
Dr. Randhawa: Yes, intersectionality.
Dr. DeGraaff: You’re right. All these layers add together. I think academia, I think our town, I think our industry is really aware that these things are important. Sometimes we are the only person in the room that is not mainstream. People benefit from that.
Dr. Randhawa: Absolutely.
Dr. DeGraaff: I ask questions that they wouldn’t have asked. They ask me questions that I wouldn’t think you would have to ask.
Dr. Randhawa: Absolutely, and I would hope that they also get a chance to, just like we think about it afterwards, that what did it mean, that everyone gets a chance to think and reflect a little bit about it. But I agree with you. At the end of the day, hopefully everyone comes out richer and more importantly the conversation comes out richer.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. I think so, too, because you’re not gonna get to the points if everyone’s thinking the exact same way. Many points, I should say.
Dr. You got here to Western a couple years ago. I think you are the first ‒ are you the first STEM scientist in the president position? Do you know?
Dr. Randhawa: Well, I certainly know I’m the first engineer who is in that position. I don’t know if there were other scientists who were in the position or not.
Dr. DeGraaff: I remember you being hired and the sciences were so happy. [Laughing.] It’s almost like your team won the World Series because we got a STEM person in administration! Do you feel a conflict when you’re in these meetings? You said sometimes you were in this position in your old job where you had the union and the bosses and you were in the middle. Do you feel in the middle a lot?
Dr. Randhawa: I don’t know about that, but I have made a conscious effort. I recognize I am… how should I put it? I am pleased that the science folks think in terms of my hiring. But even at OSU, too.
But I also made a very conscious effort because I do know that it does create sort of an uncomfortable, if that’s the right… or at least a potential, not necessarily threat, but maybe uncertainty is the right term for the humanities, for example, or for other fields. “So what does it mean for us? Are the sciences going to be ‘favored’ more than something else on campus or not?” I’ve tried to be very cognizant of it and I recognize that people may think about it. It’s my responsibility to make sure that I can help reassure them as much as I can, particularly through actions. So when we hire faculty, for example, it’s not all in science.
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s like, 90% sciences. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: We need to make sure that there is a priority across the university. We’re advancing the university as a whole. Talk about facilities or opportunities that exist. So, I work on it on a very intentional level to make sure that I can make the rest of the campus feel at home, too.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. And, to be honest, you’re not the first president who has to worry about it. Everybody came from some field.
Dr. Randhawa: Everybody comes from some field.
Dr. DeGraaff: So, I think if, yeah. If you do ever hear pushback, you’d be like, “Everyone had to think about this. The guy before me, the woman before me had to think about this.”
[♪ Janelle Monae singing Wondaland ♪]
♪ Take me back to Wondaland
♪ I gotta get back to Wondaland
♪ The grass grows inside
♪ The music floats you gently on your toes
♪ Touch the nose, he’ll change your clothes to tuxedos
♪ Don’t freak and hide
♪ I’ll be your secret Santa, do you mind?
♪ Don’t resist
♪ The fairy gods will have a fit
♪ We should dance
♪ Dance in the trees
♪ Paint mysteries
♪ The magnificent droid plays there
Dr. DeGraaff: You’ve only been here for two years, but is there one event that’s been particularly super rewarding? Or one or two events that have been rewording in these last two years? Maybe, in there, what has been really challenging? And maybe that’s rewarding, too. I don’t know.
Dr. Randhawa: That’s a good question. God, I need to think about it a little bit. What has been…? So, let me just give a couple of examples, one external and one… I thought my interactions with the legislature, I found them very rewarding.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah.
Dr. Randhawa: You know, that was something I hadn’t done. I wasn’t sure how that was going to work out, how comfortable I am going to be.
Dr. DeGraaff: Or how they would interact.
Dr. Randhawa: Or how they would interact. But generally I’ve been… if I have to give myself a score, I thought I have done overall pretty good from that perspective. Internally, I would say, you know, one of my biggest ‒ you know, coming into any new place is about learning the culture of the place and the people of the place. I think perhaps some of the more rewarding conversations have been the small faculty groups and staff groups, and just sitting down with them over a cup of coffee and just listening.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right.
Dr. Randhawa: What are their dreams? What keeps them up? How has Western failed them in some ways?
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah! I mean, that’s wonderful that you’re willing to actually hear that. Are you talking about, like, you have, sometimes you have these open sessions where people can come talk. Sometimes you do visit certain groups, as well.
Dr. Randhawa: Yeah, and the ones that I have benefited most is the, we have had these, three or four of them per term morning breakfasts.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right.
Dr. Randhawa: With Brent there, too, our provost, as you know. But those small sessions, whether they are at breakfast or talking with students, come have a conversation, really have been very informational.
Dr. DeGraaff: Well, it gives you that connection back to the students that you said you were missing for so long.
Dr. Randhawa: Exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: So, with that, I’m going to bring us towards the end of our interview, and I’m going to ask you questions that I ask every single guest, and it’s about pop culture. And I’ve gotten answer like, “I don’t watch TV.” And I’m like, “Do your kids watch TV?” And they’re like, “No.” So, it’s okay. These were the answers I’ve gotten.
But we, as scientists, we’re portrayed in the movies and the comics and books as kind of like a one-dimensional character. And it’s like Doc Brown from Back to the Future. Like, that’s that character.
So, what are your views, what is your first, maybe, memory of pop culture and what you saw yourself as your career? Any thoughts about that stereotype?
Dr. Randhawa: So when I got any time, particularly when I was a graduate student here, I did watch a lot of TV.
Dr. DeGraaff: Excellent.
Dr. Randhawa: Particularly old shows and whatnot, you know.
Dr. DeGraaff: I wanna know which ones, now. [Laughing.]
Dr. Randhawa: But what I really liked watching over the years, and I still do a lot, are British comedies on the public radio.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh! On the public radio!
Dr. Randhawa: Oh, excuse me, on the public TV.
Dr. DeGraaff: Okay. So this is like Fawlty Towers, like…
Dr. Randhawa: So I love British comedy, Fawlty Towers, but what I really like is the mystery. So Foyle’s War and… we can go up and down the list.
Dr. DeGraaff: I’ve never watched any of those. The Fall just came out, right? That was, like, super intense.
Dr. Randhawa: And I really enjoyed watching that a lot. I don’t know why. But, you know, once in a while, it’s good to watch TV. It gives a little perspective on what’s going on in the world and where people are going. I mean, I don’t watch it a lot, but I do watch it.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah. Do you think you like mysterious because it’s like a problem to solve. Do you think there’s something in the back of your head that’s sciencey?
Dr. Randhawa: I don’t know if I grew up in a British culture and I like their accent there or what!
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s soothing!
Dr. Randhawa: Or I like in the background someone playing cricket or whatever. But part of it might be what you’re talking about. It’s interesting because I remember when I was growing up. Oh, god, what was the mystery over there, which was produced here by John, what’s his name? Peter Falk?
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, I don’t know. We’re not talking about Sherlock?
Dr. Randhawa: No, no, no. This was here.
Dr. DeGraaff: I don’t know. You’re making me think of Murder She Wrote for some reason.
Dr. Randhawa: I was watching that last night, too, believe it or not.
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s good!
Dr. Randhawa: Because there was nothing going on, so I said, okay, this will‒
Crew Member: Are you guys thinking of Columbo?
Dr. Randhawa: Columbo! Thank you so much!
Crew Member: You’re so welcome.
Dr. Randhawa: Yeah, I was thinking of Columbo.
Dr. DeGraaff: Thank you. Our camera person, thank you. Columbo! Yes! I was gonna say, I watch a lot of British TV, but it’s all comedies, it’s not any mysteries.
Dr. Randhawa: No, I like their comedies.
Dr. DeGraaff: I watch Miranda. It’s a very good one. I was talking to somebody about mystery movies, journalism, and science, and how in my opinion, detective novels and that kind of stuff, it’s all the same to me. It’s literally all the same.
Dr. Randhawa: I have to say, my daughter says, she really enjoyed watching the TV mysteries with me, but she would not go out for a movie with me. She said, “Dad, you watch so depressing movies that you’re on your own.” I lost my train of thought.
At times, I do try to get away from work. “Okay, let’s watch something that has nothing to do with optimization for a minute, or whatever.
Dr. DeGraaff: Or higher ed.
Dr. Randhawa: The issue of higher ed, issues of the day are, so from that perspective, it’s nice. You know, I do at times think about, when I watch TV, not very often, but once in a while, how they represent certain groups of people. So, Big Bang Theory.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oof. Red flag!
Dr. Randhawa: And how they represent scientists and computer scientists or mathematicians and how they’re sort of stereotyped in certain ways, which is….
Dr. DeGraaff: Yes, yeah! We were just talking about that. A student in the honors program said, “Oh, they’re all these people. They’re antisocial. All of them are men and then they finally put in women but they always have to refer to the men.” And then I raised my hand and I was like, “And the only person of color is international and they didn’t give him a romantic story until 5 seasons in, so he’s not really a person.” So there’s issues.
But I will – you brought up cricket. I just wanna bring up, when I was in grad school ‒ both grad schools in San Diego State and at Washington State ‒ I had friends who were from India. One was from Bangalore, one was from Mumbai. But they both loved cricket, and my friend, Arun from Bangalore, he was like, “We need to watch this movie,” and I was like, “What movie?” and he was like, “Lagaan.” Have you watched this movie?
Dr. Randhawa: I have watched the movie, yeah.
Dr. DeGraaff: And I was like, it’s so long, and I love musicals! It’s so good.
Dr. Randhawa: And I have to admit it requires an effort, but I have watched it. But the other one I was thinking about, if you were to ask me one movie around scientists and mathematicians that I’ve watched that I would recommend would be Hidden Figures, which I really enjoyed about the African American mathematicians, women mathematicians—
Dr. DeGraaff: [Talking over Dr. Randhawa.] Right, in the 1950s or 60s.
Dr. Randhawa: —working with NASA in the early stages, early phases of space program.
Dr. DeGraaff: Right. I loved that movie. My daughter and I watched that movie and there was other student there from Western and faculty and that seen where John Glenn is coming in and there’s a fireball, my daughter grabs my hand, and she’s like, [whispering] “Does he live?” [In a normal voice.] And I was like, “He died last week.”
Dr. Randhawa: He just passed away, exactly.
Dr. DeGraaff: At, like, 90-something! [Whispering.] “He’s fine!” [In a normal voice.] Like, he had a nice, happy life. That’s how good that movie was made! That’s how good that movie was because if you had kids that were like, freaking out and were so engulfed in that story. It was such a good – I agree.
Dr. Randhawa: It was a very nice movie, yeah. I’m glad she watched it, your daughter.
Dr. DeGraaff: Yeah! And was worried about this guy. Yeah, he was great! And actually, that storyline of home was all very accurate, which I was very pleased.
Dr. Randhawa: Yeah, I had the opportunity to meet John Glenn many years ago.
Dr. DeGraaff: [Whispering.] Really?
Dr. Randhawa: He was a commencement speaker at Oregon State. We had invited home.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, wow! Did you get to, like, go out to dinner with home and stuff?
Dr. Randhawa: We had dinner, with, you know, and it was – just a wonderful person.
Dr. DeGraaff: Oh, wow. Well, my daughter was worried about him, but I was like, “He had a nice, happy life.”
Well, I wanna thank you for talking to me and talking to me about all these things. I’m glad that your life experience had me think about all these things, how we’re using science in our everyday lives, optimization. Now I have a word for what I do in the parking lot all the time.
Dr. Randhawa: Yeah, exactly!
Dr. DeGraaff: It’s wonderful. But I wanna thank you. I’m gonna shake your hand like an adult.
Dr. Randhawa: Absolutely.
Dr. DeGraaff: Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Randhawa: Thanks, thanks for having me.
Dr. DeGraaff: Thanks for listening to Spark Science. If you missed any of our show, go to our website, sparksciencenow.com. If there’s a science idea you’re curious about, send us a message on Twitter or Facebook at Spark Science Now. Spark Science is produced in collaboration with KMRE and Western Washington University. Today’s episode was recorded at the Digital Media Center at Western Washington University in Bellingham, Washington. Our producer is Regina Barber DeGraaff. Our audio engineers are Natalie Moore, Andra Nordin, and Tori Highley. Production was also done by Darren Brown [sp?], Robert Clark [sp?], Suzanne Blais, and the DMC crew. Our theme music is “Chemical Calisthenics” by Blackalicious and “Wondaland” by Janelle Monae.
[♪Blackalicious rapping Chemical Calisthenics ♪]
♪ Lead, gold, tin, iron, platinum, zinc, when I rap you think
♪ Iodine nitrate activate
♪ Red geranium, the only difference is I transmit sound
♪ Balance was unbalanced then you add a little talent in
♪ Careful, careful with those ingredients
♪ They could explode and blow up if you drop them
♪ And they hit the ground
[End of podcast.]