What do the Atomic Bomb and one of the first hands-on science museums have in common? The answer and a whole lot of geeky fun can be found in our interview with Dr. Whitmore. We discuss the language of science, the movie Real Genius, and our favorite Star Trek episode.
To find out more about the Exploratorium check out https://www.exploratorium.edu/ & follow Dr. Whitmore on twitter @DarthScience
[Peaceful music.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Welcome to Spark Science. My name’s Regina Barber DeGraaf, a scientist at Western Washington University and a SACNASita. A SACNASista is a person who’s part of the Society for the Advancement of Chicanos and Native Americans in Science, or SACNAS for short.
This episode is another interview from the SACNAS conference in Hawaii. This one is really special because it features my favorite conference buddy and fellow physicist, Dr. Desiré Whitmore.
Dr. Whitmore and I had way too much fun talking to each other in this interview. We talked about the history of one of the first hands-on science museums, the Exploratorium. We talk about how we communicate our science and how that’s not dumbing things down. And of course, we talk about our favorite episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
We hope you enjoy listening to two nerds having a great time.
[Upbeat music.]
Welcome to Spark Science, where we share stories of human curiosity. And I’m here at SACNAS 2019. I think this is probably—I don’t even know what number of SACNAS conference—where I just hang out with you, Desiré.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Many. Well, the first one that we hung out was 2014, I think?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, at least five.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: At least five.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Well, only five, I guess.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Which I hang out with you.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Every single time. Dr. Desiré Whitmore is a photonics physicist. You are also basically like the chief physicist for the Exploratorium.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes. I’m the Senior Physics Educator for the Exploratorium.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: I like my term better.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “Chief Physicist” sounds kinda dope, actually.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, like, I’m not gonna say, “Don’t call me that.” ‘Cause that’s cool.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, the Exploratorium is the Museum of Science, Art, and Human Perception. And it’s a museum in San Francisco, California. And it was founded 50 years ago by Dr. Frank Oppenheimer.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Oh, the Oppenheimer.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: The Oppenheimer.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Not Robert Oppenheimer. So, there’s J. Robert Oppenheimer, who’s famously known as the Father of the Atomic Bomb.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But Frank is his little brother, who also worked on the atomic bomb. [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] He worked on the Manhattan Project with his brother.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And felt equally responsible for it. He was an amazing physicist as well. And because of the McCarthy era, he actually became blacklisted as a scientist because he attended a Communist Party event one day, like as a grad student.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And just forever, you know, never can be a scientist.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No. So, after the Manhattan Project and, like, the McCarthy era, they were going after people. And so he got blacklisted as a scientist. He couldn’t travel to go anywhere. He couldn’t do anything. It was kind of terrible.
Moved to Colorado. Was chilling there for a while. Like, he was farming. He was not a farmer. He’s a physicist. [Dr. Whitmore laughs.] But he was farming! And the local schools were like, “Hey, we have this famous physicist here!” Like, “Can you teach our high school physics class for us?”
And so he did. So, he started teaching at the high school there. And these students, you know, there’s nothing there where he lived. It’s farmland. So, he’s teaching these kids physics, and he’s like, “How can I teach them real physics? Oh, we’re learning about
engines? Let’s go to the junk yard and tear up out an engine.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: That’s awesome.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “You’re gonna learn about torque. And you’re gonna learn about, like, what momentum means.” And so, he had these kids going out and doing real-life science in the real world. And so, all of a sudden, like, national science fairs were being won by all these kids in Colorado.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And people were like, “Why are all these kids in like this random town in Colorado winning all the science fairs?” And they’re like, “Oh, because Frank Oppenheimer’s there! Oh, that’s interesting.” Right? And they’re, you know, “What’s your secret?”
And he’s like, “Well, hands-on science. And, like, interacting with the real world, I think, is how you learn science.”
And so, he also was like, you know, “I don’t know how long I’m gonna teach for.” But he was also thinking like… he had this vision for a way of educating the general public. So, he believed that, if the general public understood science on a very basic level, that the government of the United States would have never dropped that bomb. Right? So, like, he and the other scientists who worked on the bomb were all against using it.
So, they developed it for the sake of science, and, to like, beat the Germans, but then they developed it, and they tested it in New Mexico. And they were like, “Oh my god. What did we do? What have we done?” And so they all, like, approached the government.
They wrote letters and letters and letters appealing to the government. “Do not! Do not use this weapon! Like, I understand we made it, and you wanted us to make it, and you paid us to make it.” But they used it! And millions of people were murdered.
So, he decided, like, “Hey, what if I create a museum where you can learn science by doing?” Like, the way he taught in Colorado. And so he, you know, went around the world, he and his wife. They traveled around the world looking at different museums.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: So, what year was this? ‘Cause I like how you said it. You’re like, “Now, museums are all hands on. But this was, like, the first one.”
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah. This was in the ‘60s.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, when he first started thinking about it, it was like,
early/mid-‘60s. And he and his wife go kind of like on a tour of the world. And they look at what science museums are like around the world to kinda get an idea of what’s out there and what they should do.
And then they come back, and they look for places in the United States. Like, “Where should we start our museum?” And they found this place in San Francisco that’s called The Palace of Fine Arts. This giant old building. It was a former firehouse. It was a former, like, newspaper factory or something.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It was not used. And it’s huge. And so, Frank worked it out so like, he could rent it for some ridiculous thing, like a dollar a year, or something like that. It was ridiculous.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And they were like, “Sure. Whatever. You’re a scientist. It’s cool.”
And so he did. He, you know, brought some scientific equipment into the museum and started building things. Like, building random apparatus.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That teach science, right? And one day—the rumor is—one day he just kinda left the door open. And people started wandering in. Like, people walking through the park. They’re like, “Oh, look. This building’s open. What?”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, “I walk here all the time! I’ve never seen that! I just look at ducks and stuff!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And they walked in. And, like, people loved it. And they just started playing and having fun with science.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And it was just like, this old rustic, open, empty space where you can just play with physics, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It’s, like, the idea is so romantic, and I love it, and it makes me
really happy.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, from there, it turned into a huge phenomenon. Like, it’s an amazing institution that is still here 50 years later. And now, it’s a lot bigger. We don’t have like, you know, the ten or twenty exhibits that he had made then. Which were handmade, right? Like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Do you still have them, like, in museum-esque area, where everything you can touch, except for these?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No, our museum is not like that. [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] Our museum is all hands on. There’s nothing you can’t touch. There are some of the original exhibits, and we just kinda refurbish them and make them better, if we can.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Oh, cool. Cool.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And some of them are like, literally, from 1969, right? The museum became this amazing thing, and people started coming to the museum. And, you know, Frank was hiring, like, real-life scientists who loved to teach science. And they were just kind of exploring. And people started coming, and it became amazing, and what he noticed was like….
Local physics teachers in San Francisco started coming to the museum. And they’re like, “Oh, my god. This is amazing,” right? And they interact with Frank, and you know, he’ll teach them some stuff sometimes, and they started bringing their classes—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —to these all the time. So like, “Hey, kids! We’re going on a field trip. Exploratorium.” They come to the Exploratorium, and the teachers are using our exhibits to teach their classes, right? And this is like ‘70s and the ‘80s, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And then, they see Frank ’cause he’s there.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: He’s just chilling there. He’s got his dog and his cane, and he’s hanging out. And they’re like, “Hey, Frank!” Like, “Can you teach my class for me?” Like, “This is amazing! You’re an amazing physicist!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And he’s like, “Um. I’m kind of like, running a museum, so no—”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “—I can’t really teach your class right now right now. I don’t have time for that. But I’ll tell you what. I can teach you!” Right? And so, he started this thing that he called the Teacher Institute, where he would bring in high school physics teachers, and he would teach them physics.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: The way that he would teach physics if he was still teaching physics.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And he would do it with the exhibits on the floor, right? He’d take them out, and like, “Look! This amazing thing that I built!” Like, “You can do this in your classroom!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Right? Or, “We can bring them here.” And so, that’s how the Teacher Institute was born, which is a department inside of the museum.
Our mission is to create inquiry-based experiences that transform learning worldwide. Our vision is a world where people think for themselves and can confidently ask questions, question answers, and understand the world around them.
First time I saw that, I like, got goosebumps. ‘Cause that’s my vision. That’s what I feel about science. Like, what’s the point of me learning science and getting a PhD in doing all this cool stuff if I can’t use it to, like, teach the world?
[Upbeat music.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: I love that you love light.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: [Whispering.] I love light!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: If you were to talk to a student, like, “Why is light so awesome?”
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Oh my god. Okay, first of all, light is energy, right? It’s an enabling technology, right? You mentioned the word “photonics” earlier.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: I did.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Which, people are like, “What the hell are photonics?”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Most people know what electronics are, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: What are electronics?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: It is anything that uses current, and the moving electrons.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Exactly. Photonics, then, maybe, are?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Oh! Anything that uses moving photons? Is that what it is? Or, like—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Or anything that uses photons!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, so it doesn’t have to be controlled.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Photons are light.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I mean, you control it in the device itself.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, that’s kinda part of the thing, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, photonics are everywhere.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Right? You have cellphones. There’s so many different parts of photonics in your cellphone, and there are photonics that are used to create your cellphone, right? You have projectors. You have lightbulbs. You have televisions. You have vending machines that have lights in them!
Like, those are all photonics. And, like, light is everywhere around us.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And we harness it, and we use it every single day. But we don’t think about it. Which I think is amazing and fantastic. And like, even though I have spent the last… uh, 15 years or so studying light and optics, like, I still learn new things every day.
And one of the things I love about working at the Exploratorium is that the people who work there, it’s all about our curiosity and our inquiry. Like, “What is this? Why is this happening?” Like, “I wanna answer these questions!”
For me, light is one of those things that is a really easy entryway into inquiry.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: ‘Cause everyone has dealt with the light.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Everyone has experience with light, right? Everybody knows what light is. Everybody knows what shadow is.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Who is visually—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Who, visually, yes. But—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, is able.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No! Even people who cannot see, they can feel infrared energy, right?!
[Dr. DeGraaf gasps.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: You’re totally right!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: They can feel energy from light.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah. Desiré and I did a session yesterday, and we talked about seismic communication and visually telling stories in science and how, like, I don’t like the term “dumbing down.” I don’t like—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: We don’t “dumb down” science. We’re literally just giving people the right words—or we’re using the words they understand. We’re translating, right?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I loved that, by the way. That was amazing.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But, yeah! When you’re talking to another person in another language, they’re not stupid because they can’t speak English. They just
literally cannot understand you.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Because you’re not using the right words.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: You are not using the right words, not them.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm. Exactly!
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: So!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That’s the thing! And that’s the problem with a lot of teachers and professors, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It’s like, “I spent all this time learning about this thing! And so you don’t understand it!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And it’s like, “Well, you’re not teaching it to them right!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, you’re not giving them the language that they need to understand it.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yes.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, you’re using your language, and you just want them to know your language.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: They don’t! Like, your job is to teach it to them!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But to teach it to them, you have to understand their language, right? And like, that’s the problem. It’s that teaching is a two-way street.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And a lot of teachers don’t understand that necessarily.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: All communication is a two-way street.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Exactly.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: All media is a two-way street.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And we think it’s just, “I’m a vessel,” but it’s not.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Exactly. And a lot of teaching—and this is, you know, maybe it just stems from the way academia has been done for so long. It’s like, it’s just this, “Teaching isn’t science communication.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But it should be.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It is, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah! [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But they don’t believe it!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: They’re just like, “No, teaching is just, like, I’m teaching you something.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “I’m putting something in your brain.” But it’s like, memorizing facts isn’t gonna actually get you anywhere.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Well, it’s not learning.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It’s not learning at all, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, like, that’s one of the things that I love about the museum. It’s like, there’s no facts lying around.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: You walk in a museum, and you just read a bunch of stuff about something?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: I take pictures so I can read it later, and then I don’t.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah, I don’t ever read it, either, right? [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] And so, that’s a thing, though, that I find powerful about the Exploratorium is that all of our exhibits are like that.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Without the language, you can still understand it.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That being said, we do have language.
[Dr. Whitmore laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And we have a whole team of like, science writers who really focus on using accessible language.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And translating that into multiple languages.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Because we have visitors from all around the world who come and visit us, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: We’re like a big museum. So, you know, we have, like, Chinese, we have Spanish. Sometimes, we will have like, Japanese. And we have braille at some of our exhibits.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It’s very important to us that we reach as broad of an audience as possible.
[Upbeat music.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: This is Spark Science. And we’re talking with Desiré Whitmore about how we share science with curious people.
[Upbeat music.]
We talk about this all the time, and I’m gonna bring it up because, well, like, it’s actually my husband’s words. But we’re both half-Mexican, but the other half is not white.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm. Yes!
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Like, I am—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That’s a good way of saying it, actually! I like that!
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: It’s just not.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And everyone thinks that’s the default. If you’re half something, then the other half is white.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But we’re not!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: None of our parents are white. And we’re talking about how, like, it matters who your audience is. And when you were talking, it made me think of trying to learn Spanish and Chinese and really— Even though I just know a little bit, I just feel a lot more like I can understand and connect to my family.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And I can talk to them about certain things. This idea of like, knowing your audience… I mean, I’m just—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: You’re good at it!
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Well, thank you.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: You are! And I’m good at it.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And it’s because—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: It’s ‘cause we’re both awesome!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: We know how— No! [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] It’s— Well, that’s true, too.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But it’s also because we’re Mixicans, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, so, you’re Chinese and Mexican.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And I’m black and Mexican.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, we had to grow up in these like, two different worlds on each side of our families.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Right? So, we each had this Mexican side, which is probably similar.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And then, you had—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Hey, listeners. We’ve already looked up. Like, our ancestors came basically from the same place.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yo, for real! Like, our ancestors are from the same state in Mexico!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, so, we’re basically—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Which is fantastic! Guanajuato, for those of you who don’t know.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, we’re basically cousins.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: We’re totally related.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, Guanajuato.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: It’s super dope.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And that’s why we love pork. And that’s why we love tacos.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And that’s why we love Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Oh my god! I love you because you love Avatar!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Because we’re related!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But that’s what I mean. Like, we’re very multifaceted people.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Even if you don’t have exactly the same, like— Not everyone is gonna be half-Mexican like us. Like, we have this connection.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But we do have all these other interests. Like, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Harry Potter.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Physics.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Comic books.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Comic books. All this stuff. And that’s what we use to like, connect with our audience.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And I think that that’s not really taught, right?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No, yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: To be able to talk about that stuff—that that stuff is valued. Like—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Like, how do you deal with that?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Well, that’s a great question. I guess I don’t care.
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] It’s like, literally— I, so, the thing I think that people appreciate about me—and I don’t know, but it’s something I appreciate about myself—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, so that’s what matters.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —is that… it is. Self-love, baby!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: The thing that I appreciate about myself is that when I talk to people—no matter who they are—you could be the president of the world—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —like, hegemon or whatever.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah. [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Or, you could be the janitor in my school.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Or, you could be Regina—Dr. Regina Barber Degraaf. Like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I’m going to be myself when I talk to you, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And there’s gonna be something we have in common.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Probably. And if there’s not, like, I’m just gonna keep throwing
stuff out there—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —until we find something that’s in common, right? But the thing is, like, when I was a teacher, when I was a professor, like, I would—I would reference Apollo 13 all the time! None of my students had ever seen Apollo 13. That movie came out 25 years ago or something, right? [Dr. Whitmore laughs.] I didn’t realize until I became a physics professor—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —that that movie affected me so much? And like, it really was the—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Contact really did that for me.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Ah.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, Apollo 13 was the first time I saw a movie, and I saw people, like, doing math.
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] Like, the astronauts were in this thing.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And they were trying to figure out their trajectory.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And, like, how to do what they’re doing.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Spoiler alert: they get stuck in space.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: It’s an old movie. They should—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah. [Dr. Whitmore laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: —no spoilers here!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I’m just saying, right? And, so, like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Like, read the Harry Potter books—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But I remember watching it.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And being like, “Oh my god, I love math!” Like, “I could totally do that! I could be an astronaut.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I never, ever in a million years thought I could be an astronaut until I saw Apollo 13.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And the thing that was the connector—the language for me—was the math, right? And then the engineering, right? They get stuck in space, and they’re like, “We can’t breathe. We’re gonna run out of oxygen.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And on Earth, they’re just like, taking all this crap that they know is on the spaceship.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And they’re like, “Uh, we gotta figure out a way to make a filter out of all this garbage.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And they did it!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And I was like, “I could totally do that!” ‘Cause I used to build stuff out of garbage all the time.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And, like, but— Saying all of that to say that, like, it’s always been important to me to, like, throw out my references because that’s my language.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, I’m introducing you to my language.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah. Somebody’s gotta pick it up.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Somebody’s gonna pick it up.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And if you’re not, like, you’re gonna tell me, “Oh, that reminds me of this other thing.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Which is my language!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Which is your language!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so we’re developing this language. Like, in—this is a terrible reference, but Dances with Wolves, right?
[Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Oh, god!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Can we—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I know it’s problematic.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Maybe let’s go to Star Trek, and let’s go to, like—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Okay, we can go to Star Trek. Oh, my god! Darmok and Jalad!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And Jalad!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Oh, my god! Yes, I love that!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: At Tanagra!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: At Tanagra! I love that episode! It’s so good!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: “Shaka, and the walls fell.”
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: [Whispering.] “Shaka, and the walls fell.” Oh my god!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: I hope our listeners get that reference ’cause it is so good.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: If you don’t, you’re not cool.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: No!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And you should watch Star Trek. [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] I’m just kidding. But you should still watch Star Trek.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: They’re cool, but they should still watch that episode.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes. So, this is an episode called “Darmok and Jalad.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And it’s Star Trek: The Next Generation. I don’t remember what season it was in. But it is the literally one of the of the best episodes—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Please just look it up.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —of any television series.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: It makes me cry!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: [Whispering.] Every time!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Every time.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Every time. It’s so good. And it’s a really good example of, like, the importance of language, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And, like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And what it means to people.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And what— Language isn’t just English. [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No, at all, actually!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And even when you have translators, like Google Translate, they can’t do it perfectly.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Because who made Google Translate? The people who speak English!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Exactly. Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: So, it’s such a really— I think it’s a very profound episode.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I do, too, yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I’m totally myself with my teachers.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Which is, I think, something that some people appreciate, and maybe some people don’t. Which is—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: They’re just jealous. That’s what my mom says!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: [Dr. Whitmore laughs.] That’s what my mom used to say.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But, you know, like, in academia, it’s a totally different environment. And so, if you’re at an academic professional society meeting, it’s less appreciated because they think you’re making a mockery of their science if you’re referencing pop culture and doing things like that.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But if you’re working with high school teachers, and middle school teachers, you know, they have to work with kids.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, when you reference—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And a lot of them watch TV!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: A lot of them watch TV!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Or YouTube now.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes. And so, like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Or Hulu.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —they get my references, right? And if they don’t, they’ll ask about it.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, “Oh, I don’t get that.” And I’ll be like, “Oh, yeah. You’re a lot younger than me.” Like, “Let me think about something else.”
[Upbeat music.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: You’re listening to Spark Science, and our guest is my constant conference buddy, Dr. Desiré Whitmore. And we can’t stop talking about pop culture.
As physicists—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: —and the same age, we both have watched Real Genius Real Genius.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Please look it up. Val Kilmer, listeners.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Amazing Val Kilmer movie from the ’80s, and there’s—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, there’s liquid nitrogen, there’s lasers—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Giant lasers. Giant lasers!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Giant lasers from space!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And popcorn.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes! Oh my god, I love that movie so much!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: How accurate is that movie? Laser Chick? Dr. Laser Chick?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Okay, so this is really— I have an interesting story, if you want me to tell this story.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yes, please tell me!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Okay, so, that movie’s really interesting because “realistic” is a relative term.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I think, when you’re talking about it.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Squishy!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, as far as making this giant satellite laser from space that’s gonna come and shoot a little retro reflector and like, pop some popcorn?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And the popcorn’s gonna like, fill up the house? That’s probably not very realistic. [Dr. Whitmore laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And the reflector is like, stained glass window! [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.]
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: [Dr. Whitmore laughs.] Yeah, it’s like, really kind of not accurate in that sense.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: However.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I will say: growing up, I loved that movie, right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Turns out, when I got to grad school, I ended up loving lasers. Not related! I didn’t, like, when I started working with lasers—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: How could it not be related?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I know, but when I—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Like in the back of your head?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: In the— Maybe it was like subconscious or something?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But I never made the connection of, like, “I love Real Genius. I’m gonna work with lasers!” [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] It just kinda happened!
And I was talking to— You know, I was, like, the president of the Optical Society of America ’cause I’m super nerd. And that just meant I got to go do a lot of outreach and teach about light and optics to kids and stuff. And we had an advisor on campus who was a scientist, who was a super nerd, too. He ran the spectroscopy facility. His name is Dr. Vincent Van Devere [sp?].
He’s still a friend of mine, actually. I know him. He lives in San Francisco right now. We’re talking one day, and I was like, “Oh, have you ever seen Real Genius?” And he goes, “Oh my god, really?” And he goes, “Of course I’ve seen Real Genius.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “You should talk to your advisor, your PhD advisor.” I had to two PhD advisors.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: He goes, “You should talk to your PhD advisor—”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Uh-huh.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “—Dr. Ara Apkarian, about that movie.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And I’m like, “Why?” And he’s goes, “He wrote that movie!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: What?!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That’s what he said to me! He’s like, “Seriously. Go watch the credits!” And I was like, “What?! No way!” So, I went home and watched it again.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And I’m like, “He’s not in the credits. This fool is making stuff up.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah. “But I will watch the whole movie again.”
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But I will watch it again! ‘Cause I haven’t watched it! [Dr. DeGraaf laughs.] You know, I have it on DVD by that point, and I’m like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, then I go to my advisor.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And I’m like, “So, Ara, I heard you wrote Real Genius or something.” Like, “What’s up with that?”
And Ara tells me— [Dr. Whitmore laughs.] He’s amazing! So, first of all, my PhD is in spectroscopy, right? So, I’m an ultra-fast spectroscopist, which means I make lasers that shoot light that’s really fast. I was trying to make movies of molecules vibrating in real time.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That’s like an ultra-fast thing.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Because when we’re talking about spectroscopy, we’re talking about the spectrum, and like, the absorption lines.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Exactly. So, my lasers were different colors, which are different energies.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, I was making different energy, different-color lasers, that can shoot really fast. I was making giant fast cameras, essentially, out of lasers. Which was really kind of dope.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so my boss, he’s kind of famous in the spectroscopy field.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And, so. [Dr. Whitmore laughs.] He did a lot of work with, like, with a bunch of different laser systems.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And, so, I asked him about this, and he just starts laughing at me.
He goes, “I didn’t write that movie! But when that movie came out, I had a graduate student, and the graduate student said, “Oh my god! Ara! We need to go to the movies! Like, right now!”
And Ara is like, “You can go do with your time what you wanna do. I don’t go to the movies.”
The student’s like, “No, seriously, we have to go. You have to come to this movie.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so, he says, “Okay, fine.” They go to the movies.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: They watch this movie. And the whole movie.
So, in the movie, Val Kilmer creates this like, bromide laser.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: I don’t even know what that means. I’ve seen that movie so many times.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes. So, he makes a very special type of laser.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That’s made out of gas molecules that he freezes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Okay, that’s all you really need to know.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Which is like, “Oh my god. We made this crazy laser that’s never existed before! Oh my gosh!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, “This is never gonna work!” And they make this super high-powered crazy laser out of this gas molecule.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And the funny thing— So, then, my boss, Ara, and this grad student, are just cracking up in this movie. ‘Cause they’re like, “That’s literally what
we’re doing right now in our research.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: How did they know?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, “We have created this laser.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “Not a giant one that we’re putting into space, but we created a laser, right?”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Wink! Maybe they are!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah. So, “We created a laser out of these gas molecules.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “These very specific gas molecules.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Which are halogens, which are, like, in the last row of the periodic table. And they created these lasers. And there are parts of the movie where they actually draw, like, the chemical potential diagram.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yes, yes! Yes, yes!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Those are accurate.
So, Ara is like, “What is this, and how did this happen?” Right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, he looks up— Like, they watch the credits, and like, “Who was the science advisor for this movie?” Turns out, he was a professor at USC.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: So, Ara gave a talk at USC one day. And he went there and gave his talk about his research. And then he goes and talks to this guy. He like, finds this professor.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And he’s like, “I have a question for you!” Like, “You wrote this movie, Real Genius!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Like, “You were their advisor.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: “And I saw your, like, diagrams in the movie and everything.”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And it’s like, “Why— Can I ask you what made you think to draw those diagrams?”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: They’re like, “What made you think to use that particular thing in the movie?”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And the guy just goes, “Well, I just thought of the most ridiculous thing ever that would never work. And I just put that in a movie!” [Dr. Whitmore laughs.]
And so, Ara’s like, “Oh, well, um. If you’d like to come to Irvine, like, I can actually show you a real-life bromine laser that I made,” right?
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Oh my god!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Or, it might have been an iodine laser, which isn’t exactly the same.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But it’s the same, like, type of laser.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Okay.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And so this guy was just kinda blown away. And that was Ara’s story.
So, the answer to your question is—it is realistic in the sense that the lasers that were created are possible and do exist, and my boss kind of pioneered that work. But the use of the lasers in the movie—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Right.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —is kind of crap.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But it’s amazing, right? They shoot holes through all kinds of stuff! Which is very dangerous. Don’t do that with lasers! You should never point lasers—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: No.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: —at somewhere that you don’t know where it’s going, including into space, like—
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Well, and their optics benches were real, you know?
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Optics benches were real. The lasers were real.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And—yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: There’s a scene where he, like, puts grease on the optic.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And that like, explodes everything? That’s legit.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: That would happen.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes. You would totally destroy the laser.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: So, I remember us talking about how you were jealous of me because I had way more optics in undergrad than you did.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yes.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And I actually had a holography lab and everything and made holograms.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: [Whispering.] So cool!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But the professor that did that class, he had this sign out, by his lasers. And it was an outline of a hand, and then one of the fingers was cut off.
[Dr. Whitmore laughs.] And there was a laser, and it said, “Keep your hands away from the lasers!”
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: I kind of love that a lot!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: That reminds— Like, in chemistry class, you would have this sign that had, like, this picture of this woman with, like, dark glasses and a cane, and it said something like, “Karen can’t see ’cause Karen didn’t wear safety goggles!” [Dr. Whitmore laughs.]
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, yeah!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: And it’s like, “Always wear safety goggles!”
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Yeah, it’s geared— As somebody who’s a hypochondriac—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: —and just scared of everything, I didn’t get anywhere near those lasers.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: And I don’t even think that they’re powerful enough. They—
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Probably not.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: They could have hurt my eyes, definitely. Like, hands down.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Probably.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But probably not cut off my finger.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: No.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: But just in case, I didn’t get near those lasers!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Yeah, I wouldn’t have, either!
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Thank you so much for talking to me!
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: Thank you for having me. This was super fun, and I’m sorry if I rambled too much.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: No.
Dr. Desiré Whitmore: But I love talking to you, and so it was super exciting.
Dr. Regina Barber DeGraaf: Thank you.
[Upbeat music.]
We’d like to thank Dr. Whitmore for taking the time away from the conference to hang out with me for the fifth time in a row. You can find out more about the Exploratorium on their website, Exploratorium.edu. And you can follow Desiré on Twitter at DarthScience.
Today’s episode was recorded on location in Honolulu, Hawaii, at the National SACNAS Convention. To learn more about this amazing national organization dedicated to supporting faculty and students in STEM, go to SACNAS.org.
Our producers are Suzanne Blais, Robert Clark, and myself, Regina Barber DeGraaf. Our audio engineers are Zerach Coakley and Julia Thorpe.
If you missed any of the show, go to our website, SparkScienceNow.com. Spark Science is produced in collaboration with KMRE and Western Washington University.
Is there a science idea you’re curious about? Send us a message on Twitter or Facebook at Spark Science Now. Thank you for listening to Spark Science.